Time for Tasers?

[dwynnehugh]

” …. Oh, in real life you would not have time to read any of this before you need to act….” – never a truer word spoken.

Many years ago as a ‘get up and go’ young bobby I remember of a staff appraisal my Chief Superintendent asking me what I would do in the even that an airliner crashed locally – referring to my ‘wanting to go and deal with it attitude’ of those days – he suggested that I would need to look up what I should do in such scenarios. My reply was quite simple – initially my jobs to to deal with it and not read about it – that was for senior officers.  I made my point.

The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

[Ed P]

JayCeeDee wrote:

Conditional to UK Citizenship, incoming migrants would also need to understand that they are welcome here so long as they continue to be law-abiding citizens

This is a bit of a necro thread, but that sanction has existed since 2002! The problem is repatriate them to where? Many destroy their documentation before appearing in the UK, and it then becomes difficult to repatriate them as their likely origin disowns them.

[JayCeeDee]

Ed P wrote:

This is a bit of a necro thread, but that sanction has existed since 2002! The problem is repatriate them to where? Many destroy their documentation before appearing in the UK, and it then becomes difficult to repatriate them as their likely origin disowns them.

Hi Ed, – yeah, that was in the back of my mind when I wrote that, and I’ve seen the UK Border Patrol programmes on TV where the suspects have destroyed their passports in order to make it difficult to remove them, I’ve also seen the documentaries that state refugees have rights in the first country they reach – well my question is “How come vast numbers of them ended up in the camps @ Calais, looking to get into the furthest country away from their arrival point.

The answer is easy – we are seen as a soft touch for benefits, qualification and more importantly, following on from citizenship comes familial qualification. So if one arrives and gets to stay, their families get to come too. That’s a numbers game everybody will lose.

We have to get tough. When our own ‘home-grown’ poor, elderly, infirm, homeless or whatever, who find themselves in need of financial aid and support, get that aid and support, if there is any left over for incoming refugees then they’re welcome to it.

By the same token, the pot available for benefits cannot be diminished by scroungers and scavengers and thieves, local or imported. We have to tighten up on those falsely claiming, thereby depriving those rightfully entitled.

It’s a can of worms, but at some point, somebody needs to deal with it, or risk anarchy and chaos.

 

[Richard]

It appears the battles go on and on; this news post suggests that things are not in a good shape in parts of what should be society; https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-49368649

 

[The Duke]

We had a strabbing round the corner of the pub Monday (ish), and a last night on my way home I drive though a big fight (smack heads) all fighting with Stanley blade!

Time to drop the lot of then in a sealed buling. All with weapons and hide bags of smack around the place, dropping new ones in daily.

In about a month we’ll be down to one left. Then we blow the building. I’m abit fed up of them, have to chance then off at least twice a day, wanting to sit on my benches. I’d like a taser that’s for sure.

Got a PC coming to see me today sometime. I’m gonna pitch him my idea. They could use the old aldi that closed yesterday.

[Richard]

I hear your exasperation, it is usually me who wants to napalm the buggers – slowly. Quick is too good for my strength of feeling.

I really wish there was an answer that could be acceptable to all, though perhaps not acceptable to the bozo end of the social market where stupidity and unpleasantness roam free. So far years of trying and searching have failed through history.

[Bob Williams]

IMHO, most of this current crime situation is down to drugs, in one way or another. Those with “liberal tendencies” would have us believe that a heavy drug user is not responsible for their actions and should be helped. Well my view of that is in the form of a question: who pointed a gun at their heads to force them into taking the stuff? The answer is of course, no one. They chose to smoke/inject/swallow stuff that even a basic intelligence should have known, from all the TV, NHS and other reports, would make them addicts, cost them financially, destroy their health and turn them into criminals. Dopes take dope and that is the truth.

Dwynne I have found a great deal of sense, reality and truth in your posts here. It resonates with two ex-officers I know, who have told me of similar scenarios to the ones you talk about. One goes as far as to say that he is glad he is not a young officer starting his career again, especially as a single-crewed car patrol in an environment where he once served: some of the worst areas in Nottingham. He speaks of the declining respect for the police that he saw developing and he believes that there have to be big changes in the application of the law, powers of arrest, enforcement and sentencing. I also count an ex-prison warder amongst my friends. His professional opinions are that the Prison Service is underpaid, underfunded and understaffed, with overcrowded prisons that are driving weaker inmates into mental health issues and making them victims of the harder, more violent inmates.

The whole issue of crime and punishment needs an overhaul in this country. The situation cannot be simply laid at the door of “Society”, it is much more complicated than the ‘PC Brigade’ would have us believe. Matters have been allowed to reach a nadir in our society and there does not appear to be a political will to take steps to deal with it.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[dwynnehugh]

And yet another poor bloody PC dies today – just for doing his job.  RIP.

The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

[Ed P]

The subject of drugs is an emotional one, but where marijuana has been legalised drug crime has reduced. Where personal drug use has been decriminalised and supervision of its use has been instituted it has reduced even more. The list of countries that do this is growing. Uruguay decriminalised drug use forty years ago and established legalised sales of marijuana three years ago.

The Policemen I talk to state that the ‘Drug War’ can never be won, and a new radical approach is required.

[dwynnehugh]

No I think the drugs war was lost from Day 1.

As much as it goes against the grain we do need to look upon the problem as a medical & social problem, the NHS simply does not gave the time or the resources to deal with it on the front line – unfortunately by the time they get to deal with it the problem has escalated enormously and so has the costs of dealing with it. There is a strong argument for the controlled supply of such substances in controlled environments where ‘clean’ drugs could be administered – thus reducing any need to commit crime to fund the habit.

The problem is that once say ‘cocaine has lost the effect on a person they go looking for something better – ‘spice’ – would that be supplied on the NHS – I suspect not.

The BIG question is – are we trying to reduce crime or reduce drugs use? They are not necessarily bedfellows.

The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

[Ed P]

dwynnehugh wrote:

The BIG question is – are we trying to reduce crime or reduce drugs use? They are not necessarily bedfellows.

I guess it depends on your definition of drugs, as alcohol and nicotine are both known to be highly addictive – more so in fact than marajuana. My personal belief is that this is an area where engrained and possibly mistaken moral beliefs may need to be questioned and hard evidence examined instead.

Not all implementations of decriminalisation have worked – the emphasis being on the implementation details and efforts spent on reducing drug habits. However for a model that seems to work and incorporates the best attributes, the Portuguese model bears examination. link

[The Duke]

I think the only way to beat it is to legalise it and give it way free to registered addicts. That would stop the crime as its Steet Value would be dead, So then you wouldn’t dealers getting people hooked on the stuff. And it would clean the streets of smack, and go along way to reducing prostitution, and a fair chink of crime.

I’d have local places where they would have to go to get their ‘meds’, clean and safe etc.. Offer coinciding etc.. It would take 20 years but I would end when the last addicts die.

I seen a study once that said it wousl cost about 7k a year per addict. Seems alot but back then, each one was costing the tax payer about 15k a year anyhow.

So we could pay a diminishing 7k a year for about 20years or just carryon with the 15k.

The drawback is dealer’s would just move to anther adddictied drug to push, but I’d be just keep adding these new drugs to the ‘free’ list as they crop up.

It’s certainly a war and one that will take a generation or two to win, but it is winnable. But not by criminalisation, as you rarely catch anyone important, and some one will always fill their shoes when such big money is involved.

We need to make the product worthless to win. That’s the answer. Treat it as an economic issue rather than a social or criminal issue.

[Bob Williams]

Totally agree Steve, that sounds like the solution, but the Tories would be afraid of what they think is their grass roots support if they did this. I can see a certain amount of Labour, Lib Dem and Green support for those measures though. It should be an all-Party measure on the problem, but getting all UK political Parties, or as we have seen, members of any one Party, to agree on anything, is like trying to knit fog.

Supply and demand: making the supply unavailable has not worked. Making it free and very easily available, would eventually work, although it will take a lot of time, as you point out. It would also free up a lot of police effort.

I also believe that something could and should be done about the supply of knives. The answer to that is not clear in my mind yet, but I was thinking about some kind of manufacturing and/or Point Of Sale process to limit the supply. Licensing? Just thinking here, and wondering if such a measure might lead to an increase in the theft of knives. Too many young people carrying them and too many dying from them.

If I was 20 years younger, and able-bodied, observing what has happened to this country, I would be considering going into politics to try to make a difference.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Dave Rice]

The problem is knifes, like cars, are every day objects. In theory they are already restricted. My fishing (filleting) knife could do some serious damage being sturdy but thin, pointy and sharp as hell. I believe the 9 / 11 hijackers used sharpened plastic knifes, so how far do you go?

The current laws certainly need enforcing more tightly and this can be done by local authorities, who are also cash strapped like the Police. IMO it’s the causes that need addressing as all the deterrents clearly aren’t working. The kids are more frightened of the street than the punishment. Upping the punishment doesn’t take the fear of the street away.

With regards drugs like Mary J you could get skunk largely out of the picture, that’s the real psychotic stuff (but like moonshine it’ll always be there). Plus you’d be getting taxes. I don’t know why they don’t just get on with it.

Harder recreational stuff like cocaine I just can’t see any argument for legitimising it, but E? Maybe. E is mostly harmless and like skunk if controlled the nastier stuff can be taken out of circulation.

Ketamine and Crack Cocaine. FFS if you’re going to misuse Horse tranquillisers you’ll do almost anything at least once. But Crack? The Crack users I knew were all highly addictive types who’d worked their way up, but I don’t believe in the “gateway” drugs theory to get them there. They were going somewhere similar from day one on alcohol. All were very functional holding down good jobs and you would probably never guess from looking at them what they got up to.

Heroin. Everyone who starts down the smack road knows exactly where it’s going to end. Smack isn’t a recreational drug and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that high alcoholism is present in the same areas you find it, not the posh areas of town.

Prescribed Opiods. I have had no experience of anyone misusing them and taking them myself  I can’t see they do anything spectacular, but then I’ve not taken them in dangerous quantities. It seems to be more of an American problem, maybe because they are easier to get hold of?

[Richard]

About one hundred and twenty years ago there was a pretty much free for all with drugs and drink here, Since then the nets have closed though not very effectively.

I had Tramadol with a side issue of cocodamol prescribed, they failed to control any of the pain and only shut down my stomach increasing my pains.  I stopped them as they were pointless. My wife used up the last ones bridging the gaps in her legitimate supplies after the dog who had been using the up, died as his cancer spread to his brain.

Some are far more easily addicted to drugs, gambling, etc. than others, so there may well be a genuine medical angle to the problem. I also agree that addiction and risky actions are not a ‘class’ issue, though the selection of the suicide on the never – never choice may be influenced by class or profession. Several lives I knew have been ended early by the effects of drugs – not all being the drug takers, so I am not an uninvolved observer.

I am less convinced that the only reason some take drugs is the ‘thrill’ of breaking the law

[dwynnehugh]

We talk about cigarettes and drink as drugs – true – BUT HMG make tax revenues out of those mugs!!

Knives – when I worked at Hawker Siddeley Aviation, Woodford  many years ago – one of the sharpest knives I ever came across was a high speed steel hacksaw blade which most ‘wiremen’ used to cut back and trim wires prior to arranging into a cable run. A broken blade would have tape would along the lower half as a handle and then the rest sharpened on a grindstone.

Do we ban hacksaw blades, I’ve even seen plastic toothbrush handles trimmed to a fine point!

The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

[Ed P]

dwynnehugh wrote:

We talk about cigarettes and drink as drugs – true – BUT HMG make tax revenues out of those mugs!!

That is one of the benefits of legalising the production and sale of marijuana. A number of US States are using such income in their drug rehab programs. It also had the benefit of nearly killing the skunk market. I have not seen data on its effect on youth crime but it would not surprise me if it has not removed some of the gang related ‘turf’ wars.

[Bob Williams]

Dwynne I remember using broken machine – hacksaw blades as scrapers in the workshop. Properly sharpened, they made great tools for cleaning surfaces such as cylinder heads, engine blocks, engine ancillaries. I used to keep a billet of aluminium and make a handle out of that, using the lathe and miller. Those scrapers lasted for years, I still have one in my old toolbox.

Metal memories…

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[dwynnehugh]

And not that difficult to sharpen properly!! Bl**dy lethal then!!

The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

[Tippon]

dwynnehugh wrote:

And not that difficult to sharpen properly!! Bl**dy lethal then!!

This is a key quote that people forget when they want to ban or restrict things like knives. There are a *lot* of things that can be either sharpened or honed to a point that will do just as much damage as a knife, and wouldn’t necessarily raise suspicion when carried. Items like screwdrivers can easily be explained away by carrying a few other tools ‘My mate asked me to help him fix his computer, officer. Dear little me just wants to play Minecraft with the other nice kids…’ (daft example, but you see what I mean).

[Author]

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