Surveillance Capitalism

[Ed P]

CNN has a very interesting article on the subject of commercial surveillance. I realise that some Forumites are more relaxed over this issue than I, and take the attitude that it is the price that has to be paid for convenience. While I can understand that attitude IF you know how the data is to be used, it is not so simple! It appears that things have got completely out of hand. In the US for example there are now around 4000 companies buying and selling data sets containing your information and there is probably at least half that number in the UK. More worrying is the fact that we cannot know the extent of this information revealed without specifically searching for it. (Blame lax phone permissions for much of this)

Sometimes it can come as a nasty shock to find out the extent of that information and the fact that it contains data on people who have never explicitly given their permission for such information to be held. It even caused a shock to the Beeb’s somewhat naive ‘Expert’ who revealed on air that he had given Facebook open access on all his phone contacts, and the dates/times of all contacts with these people (amongst other data). The download from Facebook of this trove revealed a very worrying amount of info on these contacts. It probably prompted the Beeb to come up with this advice.

Thanks to the EU in 2018 we will be part of their GDPR which will give us a fair measure of protection in the future. (Can you imagine our MP Techno-illiterates managing to come up with such a scheme!). Hopefully the needs of EU-UK data interchange will mean that we will continue to be bound by such EU personal data protections despite Brexit.

 

 

[The Duke]

Yesterday the US signed into law ‘the cloud act’.

They haven’t addmited yet, nut this seems to be more of a treaty than your average law.

It gives the us rights to demand info from any servers out side of the us. Also it givesvselect foreign countries access to us servers. All without warrant.

 

To me is smells of legalising what they had pre prism leak.

Remember the days when a government was there to work for its people. Now we are seen as little bags of cash to be squeed and all guilty of something.

[Tippon]

This might even give you a shock Ed:

https://twitter.com/iamdylancurran/status/977559925680467968?s=03

[Drezha]

Tippon – no so eye opening as I was aware of most of that. Mentioned the Timeline feature of Google in the office yesterday and a few people freaked out.

I was against using Gmail for a while until I read this article. If that high a percentage of emails are going to Google, which pay out for email hosting elsewhere? (Mind, I’ve still got my Fastmail account but I’m in two minds as to whether or not to keep that when the fees run out).

Interesting to note Mozilla’s latest release – Facebook Container

"Everything looks interesting until you do it. Then you find it’s just another job" - Terry Pratchett

[The Duke]

I don’t see the issue with google stuff, its not like they hide this stuff from the user. Time line i use quite a lot in fact.

It came in very handy a few years ago when i was wrongly arrested and was asked where i was on such a date. I used my google TL to tell them where i was and the times, then the police man got on his radio and confirmed that with roadside cctv. I thought that part a bit suspect tbh, but he said yes, your cars reg was seen around the area i claimed.

All this was done is under 3 mins sat at the side of the road. Modern tech ay.

Inline with this thread, last week i finally got round to starting 1984. Not far in, but i don’t think illake it to the end, but i’ll try and push through.

 

 

[Bob Williams]

It doesn’t bother me that FB and Google know where I’ve been. But I would very much like to know where I will be in a month’s time, say….

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Richard]

I can understand that sentiment and hope it goes well.

FB might somehow know of me and perhaps more than that, though only from second hand sources as I have no account and never will. Google often shows me at home when I have been out, then too often in the middle of fields, rivers or railway tracks when it does show me going out, good luck monetising that!

[The Duke]

Set you accuracy to high, if you want a better track. It will eat a bit more battery though.

[Ed P]

Steve, the problem with ‘Google Stuff’ is knowing where the data goes and what is done with it. Large data crunchers do not just spit out the same data that they were fed, they also make inferences. It was the inferences (e.g. floating voter) that were sold by Cambridge Analytica. Unlike actual data you have no right to see what has been inferred about yourself, and no say on how long such data is held or used.

[Richard]

The Duke wrote:

Set you accuracy to high, if you want a better track. It will eat a bit more battery though.

Yes Steve, it is already set to high, I hate to think what it would be like if set to low. Perhaps I would be shown as being on holiday somewhere – that is about the only way that will ever happen.

As to Ed’s point about Google’s and more particularly others’ roles in drawing inferences I am not clear as to how effective or otherwise these inference engines really are. They generally rely on soft data such as views expressed or social interactions, probably including some data on purchasing habits. Is it not something we all do every day?

We make snap judgements all the time, maybe we cross the road, or turn round and move away from something or someone we do not wish to encounter. The better our data, the safer we feel making a judgement. Perhaps the issue is where and when a line should be drawn and not crossed. At the moment false judgements flourish. The mother of a child at my granddaughter’s school lost a baby in doubtful circumstances. The mother blames the child’s vaccinations rather than the fact that she went out drinking. When she woke after sleeping it off the baby was dead. Her inference was that the vaccination killed the baby not her drinking with her soon to be ex-partner. A whole illusory heap of false theories has now been built about how bad all vaccinations are as e.g. smallpox was eradicated by soap and water… Foolish people still tout long discredited folk lore so people with limited understanding draw the inference that an onion will prevent illness entering a home. This based on an ancient story that an onion drew bugs out of the air because when the onion was cut open, (long before viruses were known about or could be evaluated) it was full of ‘bugs’.

So in my book inferences are never substitutes for substance. In some cases they are best guesses but in others they are no more than dangerous illusions.

[The Duke]

Ed P wrote:

Steve, the problem with ‘Google Stuff’ is knowing where the data goes and what is done with it. Large data crunchers do not just spit out the same data that they were fed, they also make inferences. It was the inferences (e.g. floating voter) that were sold by Cambridge Analytica. Unlike actual data you have no right to see what has been inferred about yourself, and no say on how long such data is held or used.

 

I don’t worry about it ed, It’s just not worth it.

Richard, that line is ever moving. Ten years ago if i told you (or you me) how much data 3rd parties would track, id of laughed at you. So i now accept the line will forever move,and bit by bit we all will surrender more and more.

Give an inch, take a mile……

And talking of analytics etc… I’d much prefer targeted adds than scatter gun adds. Everyone wins with targeted adds.

[Richard]

Steve, yes I agree targetted might just spark an interest. Currently the targetting is still poor, very poor. ‘

We saw you bought a carrot peeler, here are another dozen alternatives you might like.’

Is just not targetted at all! Perhaps offering a saucepan might be better.

At least I don’t get too many offers for women only personal products any more, so I’ll call that progress.

I have to suggest that limiting what you put out so inferencing has less to go on is a good idea. As for movement of the line, I had some early insights into the coming power of data analysis. I also had sight of the ways that data mining could also go horrible wrong, as associations between totally unconnected matters were easily made.

[Bob Williams]

One reason why I don’t worry about all the targetting and tracking, is that I do not allow “them” to do anything with the data, if I can help it. Most of the targetted ads, I ignore, unless it proposes something useful that I might like. And that, I guess, is where Steve’s words are correct: ” Everyone wins with targeted adds. ”

But when it comes to selling on the data, or passing it to a “sister” organisation for “Market Research”, do I not like that! I take a jaundiced view of Surveys, for example: I read, then delete about 99% of them. Some may say that it helps others. Yes – the ‘others’ are the ones who are selling whatever is in the Survey.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[The Duke]

What always makes laugh is the hatred, or fear, of google etc.. But are very happy when pampers send out their ‘bounty’ packs, when they are pregnant.

No one bothered to wonder ‘how did they know’.

Now you older lot will know this, but if you ever have bowel issue, and you need a bag, all of a sudden you get a load of free sample bags for a number of companies. Same with crutches if you have  issues etc..

My wife gets them all. The NHS apparently don’t share when you no longer need the bags, to the relevant companies.

The big difference between google and the NHS is, google sell you as a statistic, the NHS simply sells YOU the person. Your name, address, age and medical conditions. At least google and FB sell stats and averages.

So when people complain about google etc, I can’t help thinking that ship sales 50 years ago. It’s just that everyone love free nappies and baby milk, they never noticed.

[Ed P]

Bob, the inferences are based on the technique known as ‘cluster analysis’ of metadata. The inferences are based not so much on your individual actions/inactions but what the ‘herd’ belonging to a cluster does. They may for example analyse responses to a variety of responses and then examine the clusters that individuals with a set of responses fell into. Cambridge Analytica supposedly used some 620 data points gathered from a variety of sources including personality tests such as the Asperger s one that a number of Forumites filled in. According to your set of responses you as an individual will be assigned to a specific cluster.

Supposedly this will reveal traits that are otherwise not public knowledge for example religion, credit rating, education level. Although the results are not absolute, there are claims of a 90%+ accuracy. (I have no idea of the validity of such claims).

Knowing your interest in history you may find this example use of cluster analysis and metadata interesting. In this case it is used to identify an 18th century American enemy of the British Crown. link

 

[Richard]

Ed, if I correctly read what you are saying it is rather along the lines of, ‘most ducks can swim while budgies tend only to splash or drink with water’. I will set aside the old established process of linking relationships to (hopefully) reconstruct identities, it has been used for a long time in all sorts of walks of life. However sticking with the ducks and water analogy, data miners realise that the greatest chance of finding ducks is near to duck ponds, and feeding them something they like will get their attention, but is this really news? If you replace ducks with people the same thing applies, those who like football are probably likely to either have a Sky subscription, another on-line subscription or possibly a season ticket, so advertise products thought to appeal more closely to that grouping on or near football grounds. What a single member of any such group will or will not do is wide open to discussion and guess work. Of course some will have key buttons that will fire them up, that is how advertising is supposed to work, but does it hit the target every time? Scatter gun approaches are still the popular game. I get the same holiday offers that everyone else gets or news of wonderful competitions with the chance to watch some football in Russia. Perhaps some would really wake up and enter, I am just never going to be part of that group. (This example came from a company that should have its own internal data resources on me, so a classic fail.) This why I am with Steve, wishing for better targetting to filter the junk.

Bob, I understand that the ever so helpful bounty packs come directly from a commercial relationship between the hospital and the sales representative who is paid to capture data from expectant women. I suspect similar relationships exist for some other products. For a while I received a load of age related contacts, but none of them were of the slightest relevance and thankfully that flow has more or less dried up. I do get regular pitches from investment consultants, the recycling bin gets well fed. Like you, I also have a very jaundiced approach to ‘surveys’, for a while I would enter junk data, but now I no longer have the time to waste or the inclination to waste it any more.

[Ed P]

Richard, as you point out, cluster analysis has been used for years,  The real difference is in the size of data sets that are now available to analysts, and the power of distributed cloud computers such as Google Cloud (I’m not getting at Google with this link as anyone can buy time).

Although buzz words such as Big Data, or Machine Learning are used many of the techniques come back to multivalent regression analysis and other terms with which you are well acquainted. In simple terms 80% of humans behave like a herd and if you can identify the key factors (the clusters or vectors) that influence the directions taken by the herd then you have a powerful tool to influence outcomes.

The tool is also finding its place in criminology to identify what areas should be targetted – this does of course carry risks of offending groups (for example targetting certain ethnic groups for knife crime stop & search, carries the risk of accusations of prejudice).

As you point out it is not perfect, and the old adage of carp in=carp out applies especially at the individual level. If you filter the information you provide and from time to time deliberately lie (as I do about my Mothers Maiden Name) then perfect individual predictions are simply not possible.

[The Duke]

The old mother maiden name, first pet, school etc.. All can be found out on social media in moment by ant one.

Always use a long password and turn two factor authentication on. And use a password manager.

I have no issue eitj being used as a statistic. The issue always is, who may getvaccess to all that data I’m the future. Ie a far right gov brit would be my no1 concern. I don’t care one bit if Russia or china etc have my data, its my own gov that would possibly effect (maybe be I shouldnt write this I’m public then lol)

Not a dig at UK gov, if I was russian, US or even Tongan, it would be my gov id be most scare about.

Now when Russian invades us, I’ll start worrying about them. But the data will likely be the least of our worries. (To begin with at least).

[Richard]

I you have expressed similar views in the past. I don’t use social media, so I have not suffered any adverts. I have no concerns about a domestic right wing mob take over my concerns are very different. The so called Greens or the Water Melons, (green on the outside and totally red all the way through) concern me far more. Their agenda offers benefits to outsiders and nothing domestically. The hostility to anything which could  serve our rather than other’s interests is  with actual as well as threatened violence is used to drive their desires. In fact such efforts are stamped on many other protests many of which are aimed at weakening attitudes. Remember the efforts of the money grubbing ‘Nick’ who fooled many including incompetent police with his fantasies, while real child abuse was being ignored because of PC issues? A string of real cases is now being disclosed involving both sex  and drug dealing involving children, anyone for a ‘county line’?

I see this as part of dangerous pattern eroding public confidence. Implosion rather than invasion is my concern. Hearts and minds stuff is far more insidious as no one can see an enemy with which to deal.

[Ed P]

Steve, just being a ‘statistic’ is one thing, but as you point out being a member of a ‘group’ is something that could be far more worrying Abdul Hamid II, Pol Pot, Stalin and the Third Reich would have loved to have had more refined tools during the mass cullings they oversaw.

The use of such techniques by any extremist leadership (left or right) would obviously be a cause for great concern, but the potential for mass manipulation of the populace (a more sophisticated variation on the Russian’s alleged ‘Trump’ or Brexit manipulation) is actually of more concern to me as I could see UK politicians from either side liking the idea of being able to stay in power simply by shading public opinion.

[Author]

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