Strip the MOD Fobbits of their Gongs and Fruit Salad!

[Ed P]

Naively I thought our MOD ‘procurers’ (as in the brothel types) could not continue to totally waste our money. However, (of course) they can. We now learn that the secure Data Comms links on our Naval HMA Wildcat helicopters, cannot work! If the situation is urgent the helicopter has to land (and I guess use a mobile) to get the info back to base. Another sorry tale revealed by El Reg!

[Richard]

Ed P wrote:

Naively I thought our MOD ‘procurers’ (as in the brothel types) could not continue to totally waste our money. However, (of course) they can. We now learn that the secure Data Comms links on our Naval HMA Wildcat helicopters, cannot work! If the situation is urgent the helicopter has to land (and I guess use a mobile) to get the info back to base. Another sorry tale revealed by El Reg!

I might be quite that bad; they can put the data on a USB drive and if someone gets a large fine mesh net drop it on board the support vessel of their choice, – until the supply of USB drives runs out.

Oh on second thoughts perhaps fine  mesh netting is a bit too advanced for the pen pushers to understand or supply to the support vessel, I assume that there will likely be only one vessel available.

It was once unkindly said that the only place they would not secure a cock up would be a house of ill repute.

[Robin Long]

Tragically, I have seen far worse ways of transferring data used and not that far from Richard’s fine mesh idea.  The single biggest problem for the armed forces is not actually the introduction of new technologies, it the introduction at the same time as other new technologies.  The fact remains that whilst the helicopter may have the capability only a few ships in the fleet have the capability of receiving it and this is down to a beleaguered fleet receiving only parts of the maintenance, it actually needs. Having the latest aircraft with the latest capabilities is only of benefit to the fleet if the units it’s communicating with have the same level of tech.

Even when the Queen Elizabeth Carriers come online the aircraft won’t be online.  When the Merlin helicopters came online none of the fleet could land them as they were too big urgent modifications to the hangers had to be made to enable them to land.  The 3.5″ floppy disc and DAT Tapes were still in use in 2010 as the tech from 1984 could be connected to anything better. Spike09 shared his office with my servers and hated meat times as I would turn up unannounced to carry out an unplanned update or replace a DAT drive that had munched the tape with the only back on.  Having to give history lessons to

Having to give history lessons to 16 year olds who in a state of confusion had come from the all singing/dancing training school to the the fleet where an untrained able did his best to keep a museum piece working long enough to order parts he knew were obsolete in the hope that those same bean counters you’d seen on TV the night before had realized these obsolete parts were in fact still in use. Pi$$ing into the wind does not even begin to cut it.

Cheers Knight,

RIP Spike09 Your Missed
If I'm not here, I'm there.

Finally joined Twitter! longr79

[The Duke]

My BiL spent the first 5 years of his raf career converting US digital Chinooks back to analogue, as the Mod wouldn’t pay the licence fee for the OS, thinking they old write their own much cheaper.

After taking years and years they gave up and ripped out all the good stuff, and converted them back to the 70s. At a cost of many times the original cost.

If you recall back about 10 years ago these mothballed helos made the news, as we was very short at the time, but sat on a grounded ghost Fleet.

It’s the same with everything they do. Ships planes, 4×4, body armour. The SA80 rifle took 20 to get right.

It has its first outing in the Faulklands, come mid 90s when I had one it was a running (quite terrifying) joke. It was extreme acreate, but would jam all the time. I think today they are on revision 4or 5,and it now works! Or so we are lead to belive.

[Dave Rice]

I did some work for the RAF and they said it was easier to get a sidearm from the armoury than a USB stick from IT.

So the CCTV DVR had to have a DVD drive to get footage off because they could get them. The Navy could only get DVD +r, not -r.

[Robin Long]

If you look hard enough you can find fault with everything the MOD procures.  CD’s/DVD’s had to be brought from the Stationery catalog at vastly higher prices, there was even a memo telling us we could not locally procure them as they may not be secure , which I believe was a throwback to some ex-admirals son in law having started said stationary business. USB stick’s as you can probably appreciate were slightly more controlled easier to hide and quickly moved about/lost. Just sending an outside email was near impossible. The SA80 is only on its second modification. it’s a whole lot better.  Through the cadets I fired 1 a few weeks ago, the gas blockages that it suffered from are gone far nicer rifle than I remember.

The SA80 is only on its second modification it’s a whole lot better.  Through the cadets I fired one a few weeks ago, the gas blockages that it suffered from are gone far nicer rifle than I remember.

 

Cheers Knight,

RIP Spike09 Your Missed
If I'm not here, I'm there.

Finally joined Twitter! longr79

[Dave Rice]

I remember hearing about the “insecure” blank DVDs and the stationery catalogue from the Navy guys.

Having worked in the defence industry (not the MOD, but I was involved in the Carrier project) for some years I well understand the need to restrict “leakage” of data but there are ways to do it and it’s easy to audit it all. The difference between the MOD and industry is that the MOD take Corporate idiocy to the extreme and just ban things. Industry takes a more pragmatic view and controls it tightly without compromising genuine need. One of my jobs was to produce regular reports detailing exactly what files were copied when and by who to an external device.

[Robin Long]

The Navy(ashore) had the ability to track information such as you suggest Dave.  What it lacked was anyone who had the necessary privileges to do it! At sea, dived, security became somewhat lapse as even if you managed to steal the information where were you going to go?

 

Cheers Knight,

RIP Spike09 Your Missed
If I'm not here, I'm there.

Finally joined Twitter! longr79

[The Duke]

Robin, it may be of finally the second gen, but the first gen was fettled with a number of times, and has the offical second H&K version.

I was using a ‘fixed’ on in 97, it’s been ‘fixed’ since, having a major overall. I don’t look of the current one, looks more like a shrunken LSW we carried back in the day, which was a decent weapon, but again being a longer SA80 of the time it suffered blockages and higher the average firing pin failure.

The new one, hopefully better, just isn’t as sleek as the original. My BiL says, and I can’t belive this true for infantry, but recons is a he rails on the current SA80 is to mount a forward grip, to so you can carry on the hip on patrols. Now to me that was the the opposite to what we was taught

A rifle shold be carried in the shoulder held at about 45 degrees, and the weapon follows your head, so you pivot at the hip. My BiL recons now you carry at the hip, with the weapon at 90 degree, so you can get a shot of faster AND, now this is what I think it’s about, it makes it easier to carry.

He recons its impossible to carry at the shoulder for hours on hour with out tiring, so of true but but not. So I think it’s an Raf thing, as the only time a marine carried a weapon (a short sa80) at the hip is in the jungle.

I’d like to hear of someone current serving in the infantry about this, as it just can’t be true.

The rifle is an extention of your arm, of your hips and head is points in the direction of an enemy you can’t miss, while holding it in the shoulder. I’d think holding it at hip level with a side mounted forward grip, it would make you hold the weapon at a slight angle, so unless the target that surprised you was within 25meters that first shot would miss, then you would put the rifle into the shoulder, let go of the side grip, to pace your hand on the barrel guard grip, all to get the second more accurate shot off.

If you had it already in the shoulder, the first ‘surprised un aimed’ shot would likely hit upto 75-100meters, but then you get that secone shot off almost immediately.

But my BiL recons it’s to tiring to carry in such way. I know it not, I spent probably weeks of my life patrolling in that way, sometimes for days at a time, with next to zero rest. 20 years on, and my muscle memory can still ‘feel’ that stance. Even though the muscles have gone. So I have to believe this is something non front line troops are thought. Otherwise something is truly broke.

Think I mentioned this on MM when it first come to my attention.

 

 

[Robin Long]

You either have the SA80A1 or SA80A2 the first being now obsolete after many mods, the SA80A2 is the only rifle the RN use so I have not encountered others (Stand fast the L98A1 version the cadets drill with) He’s referring to the (SA80A2)L22 the RMFPG at Faslane use it, though I have spoke to a friend who says that the RAF use it. it has the handle with a shorter barrel and less accuracy, FPG like it for close quarters work.

 

Edit: Found a Pic

Cheers Knight,

RIP Spike09 Your Missed
If I'm not here, I'm there.

Finally joined Twitter! longr79

[Ed P]

Steve, I suspect the differences in ‘carry’ are due to a change in attitude towards combat scenarios and where future battles will be fought. ‘Your’ method is probably most appropriate to open conflict in central Europe where contact ranges are normally >25 metres. Your ‘BIL’s’ seems to me to be most appropriate for urban warfare where reaction times counts for more than accuracy.

Old adage updated – High Tech weapons can win a war, but the PBI take and hold the territory that matters.

[edit] Thinking about it ‘Field of View’ probably plays a role in this too. I suspect that a ‘carry’ as you were taught cuts out a little of your peripheral vision. (Unsure)

[The Duke]

No a good 30 of commando trying is in urban environments, holding at the hip is very cumbersome. If your in an urban environment and you have the weapon on your hip, it sticks out in front of you you can’t get around corners, in a stealth manor, at least when at the shoulder, you can hold the weapon almost vertically down, perpendicular to the body this also helps with silhouetting (one of the major 5 rules of camo you live, and die by).

As to blocking peripheral vision,  no, the weapon is held in the shoulder at a about a 45 degree down, more 30 degree, but not at a 90 horizontal, on the cheek, that is you second shot.

 

Robin- what a horrific weapon, it just looks wrong. Is that the old susat it has, I thought they was long gone now?

[The Duke]

@knightmare007 how did you embed a photo?

Anyhow I’ll attach below the weapon (a2) my BiL says he uses, and also the (a1) I used, but with a Susat. The iron sights was dropped after our first APWT in week 4 iirc.

Though when he first joined 11 years ago now, he was still using an a1 but it has a teardrop cooking handle, and also different dust cover to the a1 I used. That’s why I ment by its many versions.

[Dave Rice]

Click on this icon in the toolbar.

[The Duke]

It’s never worked for me. I did get embed to work once, before exams, with lots of playing, but then Lee disabled that, as he didn’t want embedded pic. And the throttle icon has never worked for me since.

[Robin Long]

simply click insert and choose picture!!

That first rifle is the L85 Variation I’ve never personally encountered it though I was aware of it according to wiki the Infantry, RAF and RM use it and can have a grenade launcher attached. I always thought it was a sniper variant, proves how much attention I was not paying!

As for the L22 it may be a susat I just googled SA80L22 and stole the pic!

Cheers Knight,

RIP Spike09 Your Missed
If I'm not here, I'm there.

Finally joined Twitter! longr79

[The Duke]

I’ve never heard of that stubby one ether, I don’t think I’d like it, what’s it range? This it must be a mute point, it defo isn’t designed for range. The the MV must be very low and a steady aim wouldn’t be easy I suspect. The Susat or any optics seems a waste.

More of a spray and pray weapon..

 

I bet you was at a loss when I get I said above, the new a2 looks like a short A1 SLW, as that stub nose couldn’t be further from it.

[Ed P]

In my comment about ‘peripheral’ vision although I did not think actual peripheral vision was an issue – I did think vision would tend to be concentrated along the arc of the gun. Obviously I was wrong.

Equally obviously, I’ve seen too many films where a small video cam is attached to a weapon (Cornershot style) to handle the corners in house clearance! Having said that, US military tactics in Fallujah  seemed to be to just go in via the roof, knock out holes and then drop grenades down willy-nilly. (tough on ‘collateral’ damage however)

[Robin Long]

Looking at wiki what you describe your BiL as using is the L85 with the rail.  I thought you were referring to the L22 (Stubby One above) wiki says it’s less accurate, looking at it I’d agree with the spray and pray definition.

The L85 as I said Above is one I never encountered but I cannot for the life of me see how an extended barrel would be advantageous in a jungle environment but I’ve never been a foot soldier and have no idea!!

Cheers Knight,

RIP Spike09 Your Missed
If I'm not here, I'm there.

Finally joined Twitter! longr79

[The Duke]

A long barrel in the jungle isn’t great, as I said the jungle was the only setting where we was trained that shooting from the hip was better

This wasn’t because shooting fron the hip is better than the shoulder, and not because you would hols a se on dart grip. It was because you would support the weapon on the strap,( something Marines very rarely do)  holding the weapon with one hand on the pistol grip, because you would have a machete in your second on hand.

I can’t see an advantage for the stubby one, the origanal sa80 was consider tiny, this may be smaller, but if you take the sa80 accuracy away form it, your left with a rather shitty weapon.

I just can’t see, how that small thing would work if you come under fire, you’d hit the deck, and be left with a crappy weapon, have to lean on your gpmg fire support man. As you will know he is always the first targeted, so when he goes your screwed.

You may as well go all out if size is all your basing buying decisions on  and grab an uzi.

I’m talking theoretical when it comes to the jungle, I went the way of artic training, opting to not visit the jungle, give I’m scared of house spiders lol. But still I think I’m quit qualified to have an educated opinion. You learn the basics, just 3000miles away from the dam place. Artic is great, noting that crawls lives, and I don’t mind the cold, I’ll take it over the heat any day.

[Author]

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