Sloppy Fire Arms Handling in Programmes

[Richard]

Steve, you are correct, however, while I would more readily accept finger prints, DNA and being found in possession of stolen goods I suspect others would more readily accept pictorial evidence. I am not sure about the current rules for evidence, several recent cases have failed through withheld evidence or more accurately not traced but available evidence. Who can, or cannot bring evidence forward and under what circumstances? It is much harder  to trace evidence when it is within something held by the other party, such as the mobile phones apparently held by the police as (unused) evidence. Happily those cases collapsed due to the sloppy pursuit of what are now declared as innocent parties. Sadly the CPS is justifying its sometimes alternative title of the Criminal Protection Service.

[Bob Williams]

One scenario in crime shows, is the transference of fingerprints from one surface to another, in order to leave false ‘evidence’ and implicate an innocent person. Garbage! –

http://tinyurl.com/j4t86z7

Steve, I was REME remember. We had to carry out the equivalent of up to 16 weeks of infantry training, within 6 weeks. That’s everything: weapons handling and ranges, drill, fieldcraft, BS, more drill, more weapon handling, more BS,more Ranges, more fieldcraft. By the time we got to Passing Out Parade, we had almost passed out several times. Average Platoon size was between 40 and 50, by the end of 6 weeks there might have been 60% left. The rest either went home to mummy, or were back-squadded. On my Para course with others from REME, Signals, RCT & RAOC* and other such Crap Hats, we had 6 weeks also, to do most of what takes regular Cherry Berets 28 weeks. I was absolutely knackered for the whole course, and half deaf from being screamed at: “GO HOME LITTLE CRAPHAT, YOU’LL NEVER MAKE IT!” If I had not been a runner, at least half as fit as the Regulars and bloody-minded, I would never have made it. A couple of weeks after the course, I competed in Southern Command cross country and blew away the field. I was one fit little bugga in those days!?

Plus we had to carry a bloody great SLR about, with proper mag’s full of properly weighty 7.62mm rounds! ??

*Now Royal logistics Corps I believe?

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[StevieP]

Only just watched that bit of fiction. In the real world a semi-automatic pistol relies on the bullet firing and the exhaust gases recyling the loading mechanism. The top slide comes back ejecting the spent round, the top slide then moves forward picking up the next round from the magazine, weapon ready to fire again.

With all the ash and debris it was pulled out of the ejection port would have been clogged thus not allowing the slide to move back correctly and recycle. Even if it did the open port would fill with carp and the next bullet not load correctly. Also every semi-auto pistol I have seen or used will lock back the top slide when empty ready for a mag change.

Don’t know if Bob ever used a 9mm SMG, but that was the only weapon I was never happy being issued with. The sear pins used to wear and sometimes it wouldn’t stop firing. When being taught how to use it the instructor held it upright and hit the butt on the ground, within seconds complete mag gone, bloody frightening really.

Steve, if you ever did escort on the convoys you will know that the inner cordon were RM and the outer Police, facing each other, even more frightening

[Bob Williams]

StevieP that is a good description of a semi auto in operation and what would have happened to such a weapon in those circumstances. Yes I have used a 9mm SMG, what a horrible POS that weapon was. Not always deadly to the enemy, but possibly so to anyone not safely behind the one firing it. The weapons instructor’s action in smacking the butt on the ground, was an “unofficial” piece of advice given to all such instructors who had to teach the operation of the SMG. Not sanctioned by any official small arms manual, but remembered clearly by all who experienced it, which was the point of course. Derived from the WWII .45″ calibre Sten Gun, which was regarded as equally unreliable.

I also used a 9mm Browning, which was a very good weapon. Based upon the 1911 Colt Browning, a tried and tested auto pistol which, I believe, may still be used in the British Army. Reliable, easily stripped and cleaned, I attended classes in using it at what was once the Small Arms School. Best way to use it (and other auto pistols) is to wrap the web of thumb, index finger and palm of the firing hand around it, then secure the grip by pressing down on one’s thigh. This makes a big difference in grip: it becomes an extension of one’s hand. Point at the target as if the barrel is the index finger and it becomes second nature.

Back to the Topic: Silent Witless.? I laughed at the armed officers working through the woods, supposedly looking for an armed suspect. They were grouped together far too tightly, on the path. I don’t know about training of armed police officers, but a British Army force would have been moving through the trees and “pepper-potting”; one advances, one covers, either side of the path, advancing and covering alternately, using the trees as cover. Walking down a path together, not spread apart, is just asking for the whole group to be blown away. Especially considering that the armed suspect was known to have an automatic weapon. Age, gender and experience of said suspect was irrelevant: all one has to know is how to arm the weapon by cocking it, release the safety catch, point at the group and hold down the trigger. Oh well, departures from reality are what TV relies on. Those of us with experience of a different reality, have a headfull of krap which will never go away.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[dwynnehugh]

Lets all remember that these are ‘programmes for entertainment’ and nothing else really – accuracy is a vague requirement.  The more you have been involved in ‘the real thing’ the more cringeworthy what you see on TV becomes.

But then if they depicted it as per real life, it would be soooooo b****y boring!!

The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

[Richard]

dwynnehugh wrote:

Lets all remember that these are ‘programmes for entertainment’ and nothing else really – accuracy is a vague requirement. The more you have been involved in ‘the real thing’ the more cringeworthy what you see on TV becomes. But then if they depicted it as per real life, it would be soooooo b****y boring!!

While I understand that playing out the boring nothing happening times, paperwork, seeking authorisation etc. is a no-no as are long lectures in the sequence should someone do something wrong. In general there are a few boundaries over which I feel that it is unwise to step. Using the wrong fuel in a vehicle (unless part of the plot line),  playing with electrical devices that have not been isolated etc. it takes no time to flip a switch or pull a fuse or point guns away from the ‘collateral’. The ‘experts’ might be no more than characters in a fantasy, but they should show at least some minimal professional safety awareness. In my view it would not destroy the plot to handle tasks the way they should be handled.

The almost subliminal message about the side effects of irresponsible pill popping was sensible inclusion. Though even prescribed use is not always without risks.

[Bob Williams]

Richard I appreciate the meaning behind Dwynne’s words:

” But then if they depicted it as per real life, it would be soooooo b****y boring!! ”

I suspect he can cofirm what I have been told by several police officer friends* – that police work, as soldiering, is a combination of 90% (or more) routine, boring work that is about as exciting as listening to a Rees-Mogg speech. Occasionally broken by 10% (or less) of absolute, adrenalin-producing, feverish physical activity.

*One of whom was a serving soldier in a unit alongside myself for 3 years. After an incident during the Miners’ Strike in the local Welfare, I was a witness to extreme violence against a miner in his 60’s, by two much younger strikers. Imagine my surprise at being picked up for Court by the Sergeant who had been a Corporal in my crew. (He retired as a C.I some years ago and we remain friends.) We three witnesses were given a Police escort, after death treats from certain strikers. When the strike had been over for some time, we three faced down the five threatening parties, in front of the whole Miners’ Welfare. They left the building.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Ed P]

“One scenario in crime shows, is the transference of fingerprints from one surface to another, in order to leave false ‘evidence’ and implicate an innocent person. Garbage! –”

Unfortunately Bob, fingerprint transfer is actually possible and virtually undetectable in certain circumstances: Police Science Link

In fact it has been shown that there are problems in most forensic techniques, such that they can no longer be given the ‘absolute’ proof that many courts previously gave to such evidence. DNA evidence is particularly flawed and subject to a lot of problems. Statistical evidence is also flawed, probably because those presenting it do not really understand it.

We will be starting to see courts requiring that such sets of evidence are produced in support of other independent circumstantial evidence rather than riding on its own.

[Richard]

Bob, having been involved in several investigations in different countries, I am well aware of the long boring times gathering evidence or just waiting to see if you can find any evidence. One resulted in 43 arrests, about half of whom skipped the country to go back home – to Switzerland. The arrests and the court phase were almost momentary compared to the time spent uncovering and cataloguing the crimes. Just finding somewhere to store the boxes of evidence became a task in itself.

It was not exciting or for that matter risky unlike your experience which was far more hair raising. I was aware that some mass strikes brought out a range of responses and score settling ‘events’ that continued long after the main event. The miners strike was one of the worst on all sides. With hindsight fighting to keep dying industries on life support was a waste of time, emotion and money, fighting for retraining and new industry was needed – and is still needed. Replacing skilled, though muscle based industry with almost unskilled female clerical work has been shown up clearly as not the long term answer.

I should not have been shocked to see machinery built in the 1890s still in industrial production use in the mid 1960s. Machinery, management, workers and buildings born from the horse and cart era were all a liability by then. No wonder emotions ran high on all sides.

[Richard]

ED, The report was interesting in that given perfect conditions transfer is possible. For me the greatest risk uncovered was that even a less than perfect transfer could more easily be good enough to fool the current techniques for finger printing. However, as has been shown in the past other techniques can be used to place finger prints at crime scenes. It appears likely that for finger print copying both parties would usually have some sort of relationship so other methods of incrimination are also possible without needing to ‘forge’ prints. This is why what I will term both ‘for’ and ‘against’ evidence needs careful assessment. I share your doubts about a case that relied on one item of evidence might be uncomfortable without some other support.

In the case of DNA and any other laboratory based evidence there are several issues hiding in the wings. There are issues over the reliability of some labs and the buying and selling of staff based in them, to me these issues are a great concern since it chips away at one of the foundations of the process. I am not sure I even want to use the word ‘justice’ any more.

The role of statistics has been contentious for some times and that is one that I find hard to simply accept. Certain cases are almost a given. Every ‘body’ has eaten, drunk some fluid or another and breathed most would accept that as fact without needing statistics to prove the point. The further you move away from that certainty the less comfortable I feel about statistical justice. I guess you might be referring to some of the recent shaken and broken bones baby cases which in spite of the expert’s statistics turned out to be down to such issues as issues genetics or underlying illness. This is quite apart from any use of flawed techniques or understandings. In my belief statistics can only define possible directions of doubt or possible certainty, (an oxymoron there) should I say probability, but probability is not certainty and could it ever be beyond reasonable let alone all doubt?

[Ed P]

I think I first became worried about statistics being abused in court twenty odd years ago when I read about a criminal case (I forget most of the details) in which the prosecution stated that there was only a one in a million chance that the accused’s DNA could have come from someone else. This was presented and accepted by the jury as an absolute proof of guilt (the only evidence I remember that was shown in the newspaper of the time). Unfortunately it appeared that the defence lawyer was a complete prat as he did not even state that there are 5.5 million people in the West Midlands, let alone raise the problems of contamination, near relatives etc. He certainly did not get into the Bayesian stats that would have been appropriate in a challenge and probably brought the odds down to one in twenty.

Unfortunately a valid challenge would go down like a lead balloon with the average jury as they would not understand a word he said! This of course the other side of the coin in the abuse of statistics – right or wrong the expert who can make the stats ‘simple’  wins.

[Bob Williams]

Ed, may I point out that the “Police Science” link you referred to, is from 1937? In the link I gave from 2015, this was stated:

” Anything that could lift a fingerprint from a surface without destroying it, like tape, would make it impossible to deposit onto another surface as it would be basically permanently bound to the tape. ”

I also suspect that the nature and effect of skin oils in regard to fingerprints, were not taken into account in 1937.

I think that we are all agreed that the trend for defence lawyers in criminal cases today, is beoming more and more directed towards discrediting evidence, by any means possible. At the same time, the CPS organisation is in a cleft stick situation. Damned if they go forward with a prosecution on police advice and information which is later discredited at great cost to the taxpayer. Or damned if they refuse to prosecute, on the grounds that it would not be possible to hold an expensive trial procedure and obtain a successful prosecution.

The CPS and often the police officers involved, are then subject to misguided, often innacurate media pressure, combined with understandable grievances from alleged victims, their relatives and friends. Onto the bandwagon, jump various, often left wing bodies with axes to grind.

They call it Justice and it is blind. Often also deaf and unable to give voice to the truth.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Richard]

Bob, well spotted on the date, though I suspect my comments still stand with regard to the issue of other methods being more likely to work and to yield useful results. I also share your concerns about the tactics of some defence lawyers.

Sadly having seen real events play out and the rubbish copy that the newspaper’s writers filed I very much doubt doubt that Ed’s story about statistics was anything like the whole story. Twenty years ago the issue of DNA was new and any reporter or news desk editor would happily have landed on the head line, ‘one in a million’ as a tag line. Any other evidence probably got lost in the editorial wash. There are many markers that might lead a line of investigation towards a suspect or suspect. A witness being one that can be equally or more suspect when there is no other evidence.  The recent £3 million wasting Operation Midland following the ‘revelations’ of ‘the credible witness Nick’ on his way to take £50,000 out of our tax payments and traduce the names of many innocent people being just one. Apparently having falsely landed his claim of abuse, he is now assured of life time anonymity though he has been arrested for paedophile offences after indecent images of children were found on a computer. He even became a school governor, though the weight of that role that has apparently been removed from his shoulders since his court appearance.

 

[Ed P]

Bob, try this link instead. I always distrust Quora as a single evidence base. Most posters seem to have a personal axe to grind and rarely support their statements. Good catch on the date on my previous post, my bad for not checking that the link was timely as I knew that fingerprint spoofing is a real issue.

I will accept that tape is impractical – try superglue instead! link

[Bob Williams]

Thanks for those interesting and informative links Ed. I have to admit that prints can indeed be faked, but whoever decides to do so with criminal intent only needs to pick up on both your links in order to do so, then spend time and significant expense to make it work. There would have to be the intention and means, to steal devices in numbers and carry out the work on as many as possible, in order for a profit to be made. The information is out there, which is worrying. Meanwhile, I found this from the Defence Ministry:

http://tinyurl.com/y94c6wny

I would wager that the ‘baddies’ are already aware of the “innovative chemical” and will work to counteract its application. I am irritated by the incorrect terminology applied to the image of a cartridge case, which is billed as “..a bullet.” Even “a bullet” is incorrect: the whole item, before being fired from a weapon, is correctly named a Bulleted Round. The expelled ‘bullet’ is properly called just that: an expended round. Most actors and/or authors on TV dramas, in most movies and books that I have watched or read, ever applies the correct terminology. Even some ex-military authors are guilty of this. Surprisingly, (or not?) many American authors do get it right. Maybe an irrelevant rant to some, but to work within a military background is to become a little OCD about the terminology.

Richard I read about the fantasist “Nick” and followed the story from beginnings, concerning those who turned out to be the real victims: Sir Edward Heath; Field Marshall Lord Bramall; Lord Brittan and Tory politician, Harvey Proctor. I have no personal knowledge of any of these people except Lord Bramhall, whom I met briefly during Army service and whose record as a soldier, a man and a commander, is exemplary. That someone such as the convicted paedophile “Nick” should be allowed by the Met Police to facilitate an intrusive investigation upon the head of such a man, is beyond me. That the CPS was prepred to support the Met in even considering a prosecution, is almost unbelievably crass. That “Nick” continues to remain anonymous by law, is equally dumb and contrary to public expectation. He should be named and shamed.

http://tinyurl.com/ya6twmvl

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Richard]

Bob, I totally agree with your view of Nick.

As for fingerprint sensors, I suspect that there are a couple of issues those already spelt out and secondly the tiny subset of data used to define a true match. The extreme lack of data ans the power to process it in a meaning time is a serious constraint.

[Ed P]

Almost within days of Apple bringing out its fingerprint sensor there were proof of concept slip-on fake finger prints being demonstrated. Not really the same as a ‘fake’ fingerprint as it would lack the natural oils of a real finger, but good enough to spoof camera based fingerprint sensors. The more secure versions now detect heat and 3D details to try and eliminate spoofing. My feeling is that biometrics while a useful aid and complement  do not really give anywhere near the same degree of security as a conventional password based system +biometric if you will..

It was this fact that led to my negative reaction to the Quora ‘answer’.

[Bob Williams]

My own opinion is that an Aphanumeric password of at least 6 characters, with symbols, is the most secure way to protect a device. Together with properly working biometrics, this should be enough protection. However, most users will baulk at this, as being far too complex. I am thinking here of the type of user who is informed that their email has been hacked and possibly affecting all their contacts, but refuses to change email and passwords ” … because everyone knows it. ” That is from personal experience of two people: one listened and changed her address and passwords. The other is blocked and no longer receives answers to emails from any of her contacts, and blames me for informing them all. Which worries me not: just another idiot acqaintance lost.??

The “Pattern drawing” security facility on some tablets is pathetic. Both my Hudl and Lenovo Tab3 8 use this method, supposed to prevent access after 3 tries. In reality I was able to carry on trying after that number, as a test, having asked someone else to set the security pattern on both tablets. I beat it in 7 attempts on the Hudl and 6 on the Lenovo. Neddless to say, I deleted Pattern access and used 4 digits, which IMO is still not enough.

Then I came across this, from the University of Waterloo:

http://tinyurl.com/y82286tw

This demonstrates the constraints and mistakes in Secure Patterns. If it were possible for Google to allow the Android app to use a pattern dot more than once, this would be a very much more secure method. Bringing us back to user who cba to use a complex routine in order to protect a device, I suppose.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Ed P]

Microsoft recommend a PIN plus biometric as readers break down.

[Bob Williams]

Ed P wrote:

Microsoft recommend a PIN plus biometric as readers break down.

Ed I did not expect my own thoughts to be supported by Microsoft recommendations! ??

Gizzajob, Redmond?

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Author]

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