Russian Mall fire

[The Duke]

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/russian-fire-death-toll-rises-to-64-with-others-still-missing-1.3439744?mode=amp

Any seen this? It’s being reported that a class of 40 kids was locked in a cinima, situated in thr Mall, so the teacher could do shopping. Really sad news. Up to 64 dead so far.?

We often moan about Health and safety gone mad, but this is what happens when nothing is adhered to.

 

I’m waiting for Treasa May to say Putin was behind it, and that tighter internet controls could of stopped it! Sadly that’s not even a joke.

[Bob Williams]

Beeb has more:

http://tinyurl.com/y7sdawl8

Alarms switched off by a Fire Safety Technician (WTF?) exits blocked, shops,cinema and bowling alley packed. People jumping from windows. Fire officials, complex manager and a busines owner “Detained for questioning.” They will be in a cellar somewhere. You can bet whoever is deemed responsible, gets more than Community Service.

There are 64 dead as I write this. Many are children. What our PM should do, is express the sympathy of the UK.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Richard]

One more it shows good building design safety is essential along with regular building inspections. However, I doubt if the true story will ever be told to the likes of us. We must remember that the febrile atmosphere will make accuracy hard to secure and export. Usually the loudest voice wins and the media circus moves on. Scapegoats will be found and show trials will almost certainly happen. If doors were locked, if unsuitable materials were used, if alarms were turned off, etc. then disaster was made easier, but sadly accidents and misjudgements happen everywhere. We have had our own share as has every other country – no one is immune. A fact that we should use to guide what we each do in our daily grind.

Yes, the standard expression of sympathy would be in order, are we so sure that none has been forthcoming?

I am not sure of the protocol for such cases so I do not know who should express official sympathy.

[Ed P]

We (as a Nation) should send a message of condolence. The women & children who died were apolitical. It also brings a measure of humanity into a fraught political environment.

[Bob Williams]

Ed P wrote:

We (as a Nation) should send a message of condolence. The women & children who died were apolitical. It also brings a measure of humanity into a fraught political environment.

Spot on, Ed.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
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[Drezha]

Watching the video on the Beeb, that spread quickly. VERY quickly. As in explosively quickly. Condolences to those that got stuck in the mall, that’s horrendous.

Nothing I design in my day to day job could evacuate occupants from a fire that goes “0-60” in 21 seconds like that. They’ve changed the video now, but the one on yesterday showed the fire starting and then black out from smoke within 21 seconds. Yes the camera was at high level but that was a very rapid spread.

Even when we had the height of combustible materials and placed them in silly locations, it didn’t go up that quick (Stardust Disco fire for example, took at least a few minutes for everything to ignite).

It hasn’t been a good 12 months for fire safety.

"Everything looks interesting until you do it. Then you find it’s just another job" - Terry Pratchett

[Richard]

Drezha I have not seen those videos, but I should ask at what point did the filming start? In any case I have seen film of the results and in a few cases the start middle and end of very fast fires though I think all of the worst ones were in industrial plants. Many were dust fires of various types. Sadly none were more then minimally survivable as you said.

I believe the Cocoanut Grove Fire back in November 28, 1942 was similar in some ways for the rapid spread and the lack of escape access.

All fires are tragedies and sadly they kill with alarming and tragic frequency. I am not sure that recent months have been worse for such deadly events, has the very intense news coverage influenced peoples perceptions? I shocked one of the company’s safety people by suggesting that more people died in kitchen and home accidents than on the roads. I gave her my contact details to show I was wrong – I never heard a word back.

This might sound off colour but I think that sadly there is little chance of working yourself out of the need for your services for a very long time.

[Bob Williams]

Anyone who thinks that this is just a Russian problem of misdirection and bad crisis leadership, check out Lord Kerslake’s Report on the Manchester attack Review:

http://tinyurl.com/y8v8p6bu

So much inept and innefective decision-making by those at the top who should have learned lessons from other attacks in the UK and Europe. Once again, the lions are overruled by the donkeys.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Richard]

Bob, I totally agree but I also understand how instructions, codes, protocols, etc. are always written for the last ‘great show’. The Manchester issue was just that, because bombings have often featured phased bombs to kill the support and recovery workers the Bomb case protocol was followed. Next time, and for whatever reason there will be another next time some other issue will come to light. As for the Russia incident, (and I saw mention of other disasters that made  few headlines as workers rather than children were involved) is currently the subject of all sorts of lurid headlines. As ever the truth is always an early casualty in favour of theory and selling newsprint. The Cocoanut Grove Fire, (I rechecked the spelling) was in the USA and we, the French and just about everyone else have had similar events – including doubtful building practices.

[Ed P]

We should not ORDER support workers to hang back but ask for volunteers to go forward. ( I would assume everyone has been pre-briefed on the issues referred to by Richard)

[Bob Williams]

We will get the usual “Lessons will be learned” and have another long wait to discover who educates whom.

Cynical, Moi?

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
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[The Duke]

Given every accident, attack, etc…. Is different. There will always be new issues. It’s about having a standardises plan of action drilled into the first responders, and then give them the authority to adapt on the ground as they see fit.

It’s not a new concept, its how all commandos are trained. A plan is only useful until the first contact, then its useless. As long as your well drilled I’m the basics and have a brain to think, act and overcome, and most of all have the authority to execute orders on the ground, a lot of these time-related issues wouldn’t be issues.

These police swat teams are very well drilled, as are fire officers, I’m sure the two sergeants on the scene, can coordinate between themselves there, then some managers I’m an office 100milea ways. Pronaltball I’m different offices all needed it sign off multiple times before a man on the ground can fart.

The legacy of Tony Blair, red tape and anal health and safety procedures.

The first responders would have top leave military level training. Maybe the TAs aroid the country should be the first response. Train in fire assessments and crowd logistics.

I’m just thinking outside the box. But surely the men on the ground should be the ones that direct the play. All while being in contact with the head office, to feedback what he and his men are doing and where.

I’d treat large fires and attacks like a military manoeuvre

[Richard]

Steve, in my book you are right. There must always be an element of judgment matched with process understanding deployed. Standing instructions should only guide the wise and instruct those who are otherwise too foolish to do the right thing(s). Assessment  must be an on the ground exercise, not one in a book or to far detached. I do have a nagging doubt that some exercises may find shortfalls, e.g. in communications capabilities and structures, but that they can also hide some real on the ground needs.

I remember one drill that went almost flawlessly earning praise for its swift, safe execution. The ‘only’ issue was that it put 2,000 people in the direct line of approach for all emergency vehicles. The plans were swiftly redrawn.

[Bob Williams]

Steve’s reasoning is based on (most) HMF training, which is that (most) service personnel are trained to think for themselves. This is noticeable by its absence when dealing with regiments such as Foot and Horse Guards, who suffer from a condition known as Khaki Brain Syndrome. This disease is also present in different colours than Khaki, amongst older, long-serving superior officers of all forces including the police. It is most glaringly obvious in politicians, especially Ministers.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
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[Richard]

Bob,  several years before father died I noticed that he was in the habit of rushing about and risking his stability in the process. I thought for a moment, then said, remember the army training; do things by numbers it will slow you down enough to allow you to catch up with yourself. He then admitted, he never did basic training, perhaps a very little bit of drill and a few times of guard duty. Due to a chemistry background was put almost straight to work leading a team dealing with  disarming and disposing of explosive devices, though not your UXBs. After that little discussion I wondered how he managed to survive the war if he had used the same rush and clatter approach to dismantling shells that he showed in his late 80s and early 90s. So not all army training reached every part for every person. Part of his explosives disposal methods in this country included helping the food production effort – by blowing up anything in the way of farm production, tree stumps, rocks, anything that did not move. So forget ‘if it moves salute it, if it doesn’t move paint it white’, his lot followed ‘if it dosen’t move blow it out of the way’, so I guess they did use the ‘initiative working’ method.

[Ed P]

Richard, although my father was ‘Infantry’, he always reckoned that ‘Engineers’ were the cream of the crop for initiative and their Quartermasters could beg, borrow or steal nearly anything they wanted and fix the records accordingly.

[Richard]

Ed P wrote:

their Quartermasters could beg, borrow or steal nearly anything they wanted and fix the records accordingly.

I have heard that before, perhaps it was just another version of initiative working I guess.

[The Duke]

Probably cos the British armed forces get the bare minimum tools and kit, and what they do get is usually not up to the job. Given the engineers need a lot of kit regularly i suppose they get a lot of begging practice.

We soon found out commando actually meant we cant afford transport.

[Richard]

Weren’t we nicknamed the borrowers in Iraq?

[Bob Williams]

For every one of 8 winters in BAOR during the Cold War, I skied at a location near the Czech (then Czechoslovak) border. The venue was a massive complex of huts, under the aegis of 32 Engineer Regiment, R.E. Those guys were organised down to their bootlaces, which suited my own personality very well. They were also great company and gave very good instruction, having apparently been at the game in that location since just after WWII. They were assisted by soldiers from the Norwegian Army, and when I decided upon Langlauf (cross-country) skiing as opposed to downhill, it was those lads who instructed me. All huge lumps of athletic Scandinavian beef, they easily outpaced me at first, but by the third year I was keeping up with them. They paid me great honour by admitting that I had actually almost reached their level, then threw me into a lake fully dressed in – 15° temp’s to show their appreciation. That evening I learned that huge Norwegians can drink huge amounts of spirits without falling over, but shortass Brits cannot….

I was very, very fit in those days. The 32 lads had all sorts of self-built kit in those huts, including a Sauna. I had done one of my famous courses for exercises in the Field: building showers from lots of wrinkly tin and any leftover bits the RE lads had. They were really chuffed when I built a shower into the lean – to, and showed them how to do it in all the other huts. Cue more alcohol consumption, but I could keep up with them. Later in the summer, I beat their best cross-country runner in the BAOR championships.

Memories…

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
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