Poor Judgement, Wobbly Leadership

[Bob Williams]

Dave your words about the involvement of young people are spot on. My eldest 3 grandkids all voted, for the first time. Separately, last week they came to me for advice. I told them to think about what all the various parties said, then think about what their local candidates say. Then write it down or replay it and try to imagine what it means for YOU, a few years down the line. But don’t tell me how you voted, that’s between you and the ballot box. Each of them agonised and thought hard about it and each voted.

A lot of my generation  seem to not consider young people as adults, even after reaching 18. I know a minority of younger people are muppets, but IMO a larger percentage of people in my age bracket should be working with Kermit and Fozzie Bear. I like talking to my grandbrats and their mates, they make a great deal more sense more often than some of my contemporaries. I value the fact that they listen to me, I value their opinions and I hope they realise that, but I will never try to influence what they think, believe or say.

(Most of) The Kids Are Allright, as The Who had it.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Ed P]

On a lighter note:

Looks like we’ll be sending Brussels a bunch of Conservative and Unionist Negotiating Teams. I hope they can come up with a handy acronym.

[JayCeeDee]

Where does your head drift off to, first thing on a quiet morning??!!  SWMBO needs to update your outstanding jobs list!!??

 

Edit – that “possibility” is probably why they dropped the title back in the 60’s.

[D-Dan]

I wouldn’t hold your breath on the C&U Party negotiating with Brussels. TM still has to deliver a Queens speech to Parliament and have it approved by a majority, something I don’t see happening with such a narrow lead and a rogue backbench. If she fails, JC will be invited to try to form a government, with the same challenge.

Sadly, I don’t see him being able to pull it off, either, which then sends us back to the polls.

Now, if Labour can keep the momentum of recent weeks going, a second bite at the polling cherry could very realistically see Labour win a majority next time around. Personally, I welcome this. I’m fed up to the back teeth of the Tories and their friend loving policies at the expense of the rest of us.

Even if TM can make it work, how long before England, Scotland and Wales voters get fed up of a small NI party effectively having a veto?

Revolution could be coming, with the youth at the forefront. And as T-Rex said, you won’t fool the children of the revolution.

Arch Linux, on a Ryzen 7 1800X, 32 GB, 5 (yes -5) HDs inc 5 SSDs, 4 RPi 3Bs + 1 RPi 4B - one as an NFS server with two more drives, PiHole (shut yours), Plex server, cloud server, and other random Pi stuff. Nice CoolerMaster case, 2 x NV GTX 1070 8GB, and a whopping 32" AOC 1440P monitor.

[The Duke]

Was lining to some stuff last night, and they was spectating that the con DUP coalition won’t last two weeks.

Apparently nothing was put in writing and it was rushed through in about an hour, and nothing signed. I line the con dem coalition that took a few days of negotiations and contracts signed.

Also i get the feeing that this is a good result for the start of a new old left leaning labour rebuild. I must admit they done alot better than I suspected they would 8 weeks ago.

TM is now in a pickle, about half her party are not even aligned with her, so the next year could see them crumble. Never much DC, or some of the stuff he done, but I could (mostly) understand why he  done what he did. With TM I’m at a loss most of the time.

 

 

[Ed P]

Looks like I was correct about youth votes influencing the Election. Some old phart was on Radio 4 complaining that his son lost his seat due to all the students in Leeds and that the same had happened in Canterbury.

I hope this gets highly publicised as it could raise the youth vote to 90%!

[JayCeeDee]

Yes – Canterbury went red for the first time in about 150 years. Shock..Horror….Probe!!! ( As did Kensington and Chelsea – also unbelievable.)

There were a few articles on the local South East News that put it down to youth votes. It is a big University city, and apparently it got motivated.

There will no doubt be some studies coming up about how Social Media and the like, within the youth culture, got them all off their a**es and out to the Polling Booths. It will be something that all parties will need to accommodate in their future electioneering. That’ll be fun to watch!!

[Dave Rice]

From what I saw with my kids they all got each other wound up and Labour tapped into it i.e. Labour were not the root cause.

They have felt ignored for a long time, because they were, and portrayed as feckless layabouts in the popular press, which they are not. They were betrayed by the Lib Dems and dismissed by the rest, so felt that you couldn’t trust any politician so what was the point?

Well Brexit, the increasing university fees and shitty job prospects were the straws that broke this camels back. The more clued up ones lead the way and it all happened where adults don’t go because they are not invited. I am truly astounded at just how much my three keep in touch and they are scattered around the West Country. Whatever app it is they use is always open on the phone by their side with multiple chats going that they dip in and out of. And they’re not sat on their arses doing nothing all day either, it gets fitted in around their daily activities.

The Tories had better wake because they now know what they can do! They had also better stop treating the rest of us like naughty children to be lectured and hectored and treated with contempt. “Consultation” my arse! Did she really think we’re that stupid? I’m going to take away a bunch of stuff from some people but you’ll just have to trust me that it’s not you.

This tie up with the DUP is being seen for what it is and it’s not for the good of the nation. Everyone is really worried about what this could do to the peace process, and from what I’ve read the DUP are too.

She’s toast, they’re just too scared to do the deed now because they know if they go back to the country the whole party will be too.

The whole last 7 years has just been one long Tory internal fight using the country as a weapon to try and beat each other with. I think everyone can now see it. Who do we get next? Boris or Gove?

[Ed P]

They are insensitive enough to choose Jeremy Hunt!

The problem is that all the ‘names’ are damaged goods, one way or another. Politicians are like rats, one sign of weakness and they all start biting one another.

[The Duke]

@jayceedee you may be surprised to find out that it was the tories that focused the majority of there campaign on social media. Thy seen it worked for Obama and Trump and went with it. Corbyn done it the old fashioned way.

I seen loads of tory adds on YouTube, a aren’t fb wad the same. (targeted in marginal constancies), however I didn’t see a single pro tory add, they was all anti labour. I personally hate that type of campaign. Tell me why I should vote got you, not why I shouldn’t vote for them.

So I think relying on social, just targeting marginal voters, was bad, mix that with not getting any msg out makes it monumentally stupid.

Either way, I seen its somewhere around 75% of ‘the young’ turned out. The breakdown will be Intresting. But I underestimated Corbyn, ne has done alot of concerts and sporting appearances which have gone really well, people seem to like him. He was in Colwyn Bay on Wednesday (20mins from me), I count be bothered to go and check him out, but I also wouldn’t open the door to him or any others, so I wasn’t going out my way. But a few I know that did said they come away liking him.

All this, and TM wouldn’t leave her house thinking a few (bad) targeted adds would do.

Is this ad good as it gets for labour, or is this a new dawn? That’s the big question. But one thing is for sure the old tory votes will be dieing out alot quicker than the new wave of labour votes will.

What is now sure, the age of centre politics is dead. It’s again a left and right world. One good thing that could come from this is TMs further right (can’t call it far right), will need to be brought closer to the centre. Or at least tamed a tad. So me may be back to a little more centre right vs left for a while. If she would of won by a good margin, we would of been going even further right.

I’d like to add, I’m not a stornch labour supporter, I’ve voted for tory and Labour in my life. I vote on polices not parties. I’m a strange mix of Liberal,  socialist and right, depending on the question asked. (and the time of day).

[Bob Williams]

I once thought that this country needed a party of the Centre, that would end all the ‘Left you Right me’ krap. Then B.Liar gave us new Labour, his eventual departure leading to Broon. The two of them completely f*****d up the country’s economy and left us with a national debt that has no chance of being significantly reduced this side of 2050.

Now I think the problem is just sheer incompetence by most politicians of either flag colour. I hate to think what Corbyn’s “Back To 1947 Plan” would do to the UK (or whatever is left of the UK if he ever leads a Labour government). But TM is just awful: totally incompetent, has absolutely no clue what to do apart from slagging off everyone who opposes her. U-turns are her speciality it seems, beginning with the way she became a fervent Brexiteer, after being such a Remainer champion. Anyone following her rise to PM, cannot fail to notice a distinct lack of competence, good judgement and workable ideas. The only remotely efficient Tory is David Davis, who has said many times that he does not want the job. Ken clarke is on his bike after the next election. The only two names I can think of as a replacement for TM, are Sir Alan Duncan and Michael Fabricant. Anyone else any ideas? Someone has to pull her chestnuts out of the fire.

What we needed , especially at the time we are about to negotiate selling the British people a false dream of patriotic nonsense, was a majority government and a good, working opposition. What we got was the latter, without the former. A mess.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[The Duke]

I think it was Margaret thatcher herself that said “her biggest achievement was New labour”.

Sort of sums it up.

Corbyns may even be New Cons, or may worst achievement may be seen as New New Labour or New old Labour, or a return to old labour.

Christ do we have a label for what labour is now?

[D-Dan]

We do, it was once called the Socialist Democratic Party, and Corbyn is a return to Socialist democrats.

Personally, I say good luck to him. I’d much rather have Corbyn’s Labour than May’s Conservatives 8 days a week.

Arch Linux, on a Ryzen 7 1800X, 32 GB, 5 (yes -5) HDs inc 5 SSDs, 4 RPi 3Bs + 1 RPi 4B - one as an NFS server with two more drives, PiHole (shut yours), Plex server, cloud server, and other random Pi stuff. Nice CoolerMaster case, 2 x NV GTX 1070 8GB, and a whopping 32" AOC 1440P monitor.

[Ed P]

Compared with the 1950s both parties are closer to what was then termed Communism. In reality the main differences now are in which branch of Economics they hold to be their font of wisdom. The Tory party are wedded to the Friedmanite free market which works well when things are favourable but when it doesn’t it falls back onto austerity which punishes the masses for the sins of the few. The Labour party are the converse, their Keynesian tax and spend works well in times of uncertainty and depression (like we now face), but rapidly degenerates into a TBLiar/Brune spend-fest when times look positive.

I cannot criticise Corbyn’s views on the nuclear option, as we would be in deep poo if ever we got to that point. I personally like the Duke’s view on defence that he stated some while ago. IIRC it was to just pretend you have an whole arsenal of nuclear weapons, but secretly spend the money on other things!

[Ed P]

In acknowledgement to  George Osbourne’s comment, I really wonder if this will become known as the Zombie Parliament. It certainly now contains a fair selection of the politically undead such as Michael Gove..Will Bojo attempt to find Gove’s heart and drive a stake into it?

Listen to ‘Today in Parliament’ every day for yet another thrilling episode of this cliff hanger as May struggles to hang on to power, and her cabinet wrench themselves apart.

[Dave Rice]

Micheal Gove, the environment secretary that tried to drop climate change from the national curriculum. says it all really. Another case of have them inside the tent pissing out. Except this time I think the piss will be flying everywhere inside and out and a fair bit of shit too.

I’m hoping the UDP think of the implications to the peace process and realise what they may be shackling themselves to. I know this isn’t a coalition but the junior partner always comes off worse in the end. If it all goes T.U., especially at Stormont, it could cause them a world of pain like the Lib Dems are still feeling.

You can tell the Brexiteers are getting worried, they’re shouting even louder and claiming all Labour voters are their allies as well. So why are they so frightened of a Labour government? Surely if, as they say, Labour agree with their hard Brexit view that would be worth leaving the EU at any price? DUP want Farage involved

[D-Dan]

To say that anyone that voted leave voted for a hard exit is simply wrong. That’s the Tory spin machine at work, rather than reality.

I voted out, and would do so again, but I most certainly did not vote for “No deal is better than a bad deal”, nor did I vote for prolonged uncertainty for EU citizens living in the UK and vice versa.

Arch Linux, on a Ryzen 7 1800X, 32 GB, 5 (yes -5) HDs inc 5 SSDs, 4 RPi 3Bs + 1 RPi 4B - one as an NFS server with two more drives, PiHole (shut yours), Plex server, cloud server, and other random Pi stuff. Nice CoolerMaster case, 2 x NV GTX 1070 8GB, and a whopping 32" AOC 1440P monitor.

[Ed P]

The problem is Dan that no-one who voted ‘leave’ really knew exactly what they were voting for, and still don’t.

As was always known we will be negotiating in effect with 27 countries all of whom have their own agenda and any single country has an absolute veto on a deal. Although you can expect the big seven to negotiate fairly rationally, I hate to think what the rest will do. If even one of the 27 votes against the final terms then a ‘hard’ Brexit is automatic. This process is most definitely not in the hands of the  UK Government, and I think the Conservatives are starting to realise that due to the youth vote a hard Brexit could keep them out of a majority Government for generations, and may be something they need to avoid. As Dave points out the youth are going to be around a lot longer than the old Pharts and Daily Wail readers who made up the majority of the pro Brexit camp..

I think whatever UK Government is in power in 12 months time, they had better start thinking about what could be negotiated in practical terms with the 27 EU members, and what face-saver could be put to the British people in yet another Referendum. Whatever it was that the Daily Wail wanted is not on the table they need to get real and start coming clean that 95% of the regulations they so irrationally complained about is in fact merely minimum manufacturing and safety specifications.

If we just want out of TBLiar’s Court of Human Misrights then that is doable, if we want to control the entry of EU citizens that too is doable. Suspension of the Schengen agreement is already allowed on a temporary basis and this was looked at being extended for two years by the EU in the case of Greece. Lots of back-to-back temporary suspensions with deals on those with approved jobs may be a way forward.

Remaining in the EU and getting face saving deals is still an  alternative that UK political parties should be starting to consider. Conservatives should also realise that a subtle shift in this respect would actually be less acceptable in Labour heartlands where more ignorant voters thought they would be able to kick out the existing immigrant population if they voted Brexit. (comment based on the many post-referendum TV interviews I saw)

[JayCeeDee]

D-Dan wrote:

To say that anyone that voted leave voted for a hard exit is simply wrong. That’s the Tory spin machine at work, rather than reality. I voted out, and would do so again, but I most certainly did not vote for “No deal is better than a bad deal”, nor did I vote for prolonged uncertainty for EU citizens living in the UK and vice versa.

 

That’s what at the heart of where we find ourselves currently. Cameron asked the wrong question. He also made the mistake of thinking he knew the answer, before he asked the question.

I said at the time, before the vote, what was needed was a list of twenty or thirty grievances the public at large had with our membership of Europe, not are we in or are we out, that could have been held in reserve. All the “campaigning ” that ensued would then have been to educate the public on the details of each, and any ramifications that they had, eg can’t do this without that happening. We all then voted on five things that were important to us. The teams could then have gone to Europe and negotiated on the top fifteen or twenty. They would then have refined and improved what the public saw as the problems we had with Europe, with Europe in full knowledge that the “whole” of Britain, or at least the 60% that voted, were behind the team.

That way we could have come out with improved conditions without cutting our own throats in one way or another.

All the leaders ( of all persuasions ) that had gone to Europe to negotiate before had come back bigging themselves up on how well they had done, but Maggie was the last one to get anything worthwhile from Europe, because at that time we were a stronger unit negotiating from a stronger position ( relatively speaking ).

 

Edit – crossed posts with Ed, but I think what he’s saying and what I’m saying are coming from the same place.

PS – Ed, please don’t adopt Richard’s prosaic adaptations of names and titles – I know you love the English language!!??

[The Duke]

If DC knew (or had an idea)  he was going to win the GE, he would never of promised a brexit referendum at all. And we wound the be in this mess.

I’m not blaming him, as when he promised it the race looked closer than it was, and he wanted to pull back some voters from ukip.

Bit he did, we did, and now we’re here.

[Author]

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