polystyrene tiles

[Ed P]

The elder brother of these is called a BLEVE (Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapour — scary as hell for fire-fighters), but I guess a Thermobaric MOAB Explosion (fully mixed fuel and air) releases nearly the force of a tactical nuke so must be a LOT worse!.

[Bob Williams]

I know someone who was a bit “New Age” and addicted to hanging Crystals in her windows. I warned her, she gave no heed as she did to most people around her. Hung a very large, faceted “Wicca” crystal in her South-facing window. Sun’s rays magnified by the crystal set the curtains on fire, melted the rolled-up plastic blind. She took them all down and eventually moved away, big relief as she was always doing something daft, or talking crap, trying to ‘convert’ people to her wacky ideas. I hope she found a Covern and joined other witches.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[The Duke]

The irony of the magic crystal almost burning her house down.sjouldnt laugh but…  Lol…

[Richard]

Drezha wrote:

In terms of polystyrene tiles in the kitchen, perfectly permissible under the current regulations , depending on the room size. Class 3 materials are permitted for 4m^2 rooms, however. For bigger rooms, these have to be Class 1. You’ll have to dig in to the manufacturers details to find if the tiles are Class 1. Building regs are sound – they’re only about four pages of A4. Simply states that you have to build a safe building, so it’s the guidance on how to meet that is being changed (and the new version is being updated at the minute). If you’re after a chip pan fire, the following video is pretty amusing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWFH1Y0WocI EDIT: Changed the broken embedded video for a link. Tippon.

I think you explained the total gulf between the earnest desires of the building regulations and the absence of meaningful effect on the ground. I assume that the 4m^2 is 4 square metres, in which case it applies to some rather small (and if tiled with those things, dangerous) spaces. Quite where the reference can be found is not totally transparent to the ordinary householder – nor to many of the ‘tradespeople’ currently plying their ‘trade’.

Classes are classifications of the surface spread of flame test (BS 476 part 7). They refer to the degree of flame spread on an ignited panel 900mm x 230mm cut from a laminate. The panel is exposed at right angles to a radiant panel to reproduce the effect of a fire on an adjoining wall or ceiling. It is ignited at the hotter end and allowed to burn for 10 minutes. Flame spread is measured along a line 75mm from the base.

A Class 1 rating is given if the spread of flame is no greater than 165mm, does that really apply to these firebomb tiles?

A Class II rating is given if the spread of flame is no greater than 215mm in the first 1½ minutes and on overall spread of no more than 455mm. Again I find it hard to believe that anything so fire prone can be able to pass that test either.

However that is only the first weak plank in the structure, the other is that the class certifications that appear to be created in sometimes less than open ways. The above definitions are apparently quite explicit but practice suggests that they fail to live up to needs. As for Quite why anyone would want incendiary materials used on what is supposed to be a fire barrier is another question. Is class 1 really that totally useless that it can allow such materials as those tiles to pass?

[Ed P]

LACORS is a little more fulsome in its guidance (probably due to Local Authority and legal liabilities).

“Class 3, D s3, d2

These include those specified in class 1 with the addition of thermosetting plastics and surfaces covered with polystyrene wall and ceiling tiles.

Not acceptable on escape routes and stairways.

Acceptable in small rooms and parts of other rooms if the total area does not exceed more than one half of the floor area up to a maximum of 20m².

Not acceptable on escape routes and stairways.“

The latter remark underlines John’s wisdom in removing the tiles from his main escape route.

Apparently the fire resistance treatment is effective enough on modern tiles not to exhibit the terrifying results of the past. I have not tried so cannot comment other than pass on a third-party remark.

[edit] Although I recognise that the LACORS guide had to do a cya deferring to the Courts. but I shudder to think about ignorant judges prognosticating on technical issues. Sure they can weigh up evidence but how do they know that they have seen all relevant evidence — they just do not have the training or experience to do so.

[Richard]

Ed P wrote:

. Not acceptable on escape routes and stairways.“ The latter remark underlines John’s wisdom in removing the tiles from his main escape route. Apparently the fire resistance treatment is effective enough on modern tiles not to exhibit the terrifying results of the past. I have not tried so cannot comment other than pass on a third-party remark. [edit] Although I recognise that the LACORS guide had to do a cya deferring to the Courts. but I shudder to think about ignorant judges prognosticating on technical issues. Sure they can weigh up evidence but how do they know that they have seen all relevant evidence — they just do not have the training or experience to do so.

I am far more sanguine about judges’ involvement at least as far as the Grenville investigation. I should point out that there are some very pertinent issues  to be considered. One of which came to light recently, fire rated doors that were supposed to meet a certain key rating and had been sold and installed as such failed within far less time, by failed I mean totally failed. I understand that there are many other issues that touch on how useful the rating are, how reliable the tests are, can they ever represent real world conditions, etc. in fact many other such questions on just about everything. It will be for the judgement to be made on the balance of legal probabilities as to where problems lay and it is on that basis any legal person should be constrained to act. (I am with those who complain that some sentences appear nuts, but if the nutty law says a murder must be given nothing worse than tea and biscuits, that is all they can be given, judge or no judge’s true thoughts.)

I want the whole system building substances approvals system to be given a once in a lifetime taking apart, so that it can be sorted out and put back on a sound basis. I want to know that if I buy something that it will be of a suitable standard for the job I want done, not a problem waiting to kill someone.

[Ed P]

For the specific case of Grenville I agree – the Judge appears to be seeking a broad spectrum of evidence and the Inquiry may well result in some meaningful changes.

I’ll reserve final judgement until I see how he handles those responsible for carrying out ‘paper’ studies of materials suitability, and their very evident failures not to pull in high rise fire experiences in the US, Germany and UAE.

[Richard]

In the case of Grenville, the saddest thing is that a once almost fireproof building from the 1970s old standards, where stay put was probably sound advice, was turned into a pyre by more modern ‘high specification’ mistakes.

I have an interest in the materials specifications as for one of many pie in the sky projects, I am wondering about insulating the garage doors, cheaply and with lightweight insulation. Perhaps I will wait, fire retardant, low flammability, fire resistant and class whatever sound a little less appealing now. They all appear to burn just with greater or slightly lesser vigour.

[Bob Williams]

I wonder what will happen regarding all the properties across the UK which are found to have similar problems to Grenfell Tower. Will the taxpayer fund this enormous expense? Or will some companies be eventually driven out of business if they have to stump up? How far will the faults and responsibilities travel? After the inquiries and investigations are done, we should be in the middle of trying to repair and recover from whatever Brexit does. Treasury money is liable to be thin on the ground.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[The Duke]

One way or another the tax payer will pay.

[Richard]

Steve, I doubt that you are wrong, in many cases we paid to put it in place, paid again because its use was not regulated and so now we must keep on paying.

[Drezha]

Point to note between EdP and Richards posts – one is quoting the European standard (EdP) and Richard was quoting the National standard. They differ slightly.

 

In terms of fitting panels – if these are fitted after Building Regs has been signed off (i.e. refurb or by a homeowner), then the Building Regs do not apply.

Bob – they’re coming after consultants (and therefore our insurance firm). My firm has had one attempt at suing us. It hasn’t gone anywhere, because the contractor ignored our report.

"Everything looks interesting until you do it. Then you find it’s just another job" - Terry Pratchett

[Richard]

Thank you @Drezha, you shone a small beam of light into a dark passage in my mind. Many buildings were developed in past days against the standards, or lack thereof and have since had works done that took little account of any impact those works might have against current best practice. Ignorance rules in so many cases and I include my own culpability in small works; the holes appear to cover more than enough to allow far too much to go wrong.

[Drezha]

BTW, when I say refurbishments aren’t subject to Building Regs, they aren’t applied in the same fashion. You don’t have to make a building that doesn’t meet the current standards meet the current standards. I’m working on a 1970’s tower block and it’s being refurbed – we’re making the existing situation “no worse” with our works. However, it’ll never comply with the current regulations, because the distance from the stair to a flat door exceeds that within the current guidance – we can’t change that!

And we can design the inside of flats to be safe, but we can’t then regulate a flat owner does. Even enforcement by the Fire Service can’t – they can only enforce safety within the common spaces. There is an argument that they can, but it’s never been used or challanged (and it would go to court I imagine to do so).

"Everything looks interesting until you do it. Then you find it’s just another job" - Terry Pratchett

[Ed P]

Some enforcement on internal conditions can be done by authorities but it is normally done on health grounds. Those targetted are either hoarders or slovenly.

[Richard]

@Drezha, there are key aspects of older buildings such as the one you cite over door to escape route distances that cannot be altered in anyway. There are some aspects of older buildings that can and maybe should be brought more in line with current thinking. Hand rail heights on stairs and landings have changed over the years, my daughter’s 1950s house has a lower than currently specified balustrade as was  pointed out in a survey. I understand that should be changed if any ‘significant’ work is undertaken, small beer compared with your line I know. Another aspect that I understood should be addressed is such as electrical wiring, most older places do not meet current requirements and those deficiencies should be addressed as a part of ‘major works’, i.e. something rather more than a colour change to the paintwork. Insulation standards have likewise changed and I understand require attention in the event of major works, e.g. extensions. Single glazing being changed to double or triple glazing, roof insulation and inter-floor sound and heat insulation may also need attention to achieve current targets. (The latter may be a good thing in many buildings, including our 1990s house.) But here is the rub for me at least, are the current standards-meeting-products actually fit for my purposes? If I did as I am tempted at times used some ‘blow in, fire rated inter-floor sound and thermal insulation’, would that cause more trouble than its addition was worth? Is it really ‘fire proof ‘and damp proof with no unwanted side effects, etc., what does that mean in my real world, which is neither someone’s desk nor their laboratory?

I have a hatred of terms like ‘fire proofed’, ‘fire resistant’ and the common one, ‘water (or shower) resistant’, you remain dry in the porch, but three steps outside in the rain your are soaked – wrong rain perhaps?

Reports suggest the some fire rated replacement products apparently used in good faith, did not achieve their rated performance in deployment situations. It is one thing if your showerproof mac leaks like a sieve, it is quite another if your shiny new fire door makes a better heater than barrier. Plastic window frames appear to be something of a liability in fire situations. They may or may not burn, but they just melt away; they were suspected in the Lakanal House fire though it was later established that botched work removed fire stopping was a vital factor as the windows were metal not as initially reported. External cladding was also an cause for concern in that case. It was another old building, retro fitted ‘to make it move closer to current standards’.

Truly the road to hell has been well paved with apparently good intentions by many unfortunate souls.

I do not expect you to go out on a limb and provide an opinion you have to remain as Ceaser’s wife, untainted. I am simply brain dumping my personal doubts and concerns.

[Ed P]

Richard I only cautiously agree with your last post as it verges on ‘nanny statism’, which I abhor. Probably a better way of addressing your points would be to mandate that Insurers use bright red ink at the top of every house policy stating no payout will be made if —-

With respect to insulating a garage door, I investigated this and concluded it would be better to replace the garage door with one that had internal insulation. I had three reasons for this:

a) My old self opening up&over door only used 255 different security codes! Modern ones are more like car locks with resetting crypto, 32 bit codes etc. i.e. the door opener had to be replaced.

b) The task of physically insulating the old aluminium door was daunting in terms of getting insulation to securely stick was to say the least daunting. Due to the paints used on the door it was going to need stripping and sanding before repainting and life is too short.

[edit] I did not look very hard at insulation, but I was considering the insulating blocks as sold by B&Q.

c) Although modern combination plastic-insulation doors are perhaps not as fire-resistant I figured that maybe was the least of my worries as they are normally sized to fit exactly and are made for those who wish to turn their garage into a spare room/storage (not me). I’m very pleased with the result I estimate it raised inside winter garage temperatures by at least 5 degrees and probably lowered house heating bills as a result. I used this company and have no complaints at all.

[Richard]

@Edp, I understand where you are coming from but I would not wish to give insurers any more wriggle line than they take already.

My understanding is that if you do major works, (quite how explicitly they are defined I have not researched), but it almost certainly covers anything for which planning permission or building control permission perhaps both needs to be sought, then retro fitting work may be required.You do not get the option not to take action.

For example, I understand that the average heat loss has to be improved as a result of any work, roof work will require upgrading roof insulation, etc.. All new electrical wiring must confirm to current standards. This can cause a conflict where the old wiring falls far short, (no pun intended) with such things as incorrect earth wiring including missing earth wires(!), under specification wires, the use of obsolete colour codes, (anyone remember brown earth wires?), rubber insulation, shellac and varnished paper plus double cotton covered, etc. Apparently building control/planning can treat extensive developments almost as though they are rather close to new builds. My brother is working through ‘a few minor changes’ to a place he bought as a bungalow but has turned into a two storey house. Yes he jacked up the roof and in effect slid in a new storey, work is still in progress…

Our current garage doors are good condition wooden up and over items styled to match the house architecture. Two different remote systems are used on the different doors as one controller died. The controller is a replaceable item, remove the old, connect the new, job done. No heavy work is required. With a wooden back, a variety of attachment options exists  to apply any insulation. I am slightly interested in insulation as the 1970s fridge is showing signs of age having lived out there for over a quarter of a century. Monitoring the winter temperatures during the coldest part of last winter suggested the minimum was marginally below the desired operational minima for a ‘modern’ intolerant fridge’ with its tight and limited environmental demands. I suspect even modest door insulation would cut summer highs and increase winter lows by a useful margin and might do useful things to our room above that part of the house. I am now anything for an easy life, so not a lot of action may well be the option of choice.

However I understand where you are coming from with what you did. Package options removing all issues in one go can be an attractive option.

[JayCeeDee]

My garage is a workshop/utility room but needs a fair bit of work to get it how we want it.

My current plan is to remove the asbestos roof and replace it with THIS – once that is done, the garage door will be screwed into the frame and the inside space will be ( rockwool ?) insulated and plasterboarded over and skimmed. Either the side window or the single door will be replaced with patio doors.

I shouldn’t lose any wall/floor space as the door is almost always kept clear, so I would gain that wall, plus extra wall space that is covered by the slider channels.

All the ( manual ) opening gear will be placed behind the plasterboard, so that should anyone wish to reverse the procedure, they will be able to do just that. From the outside nothing will look different, it will look like an up-and-over door, but it just won’t open.

Edit – Richard – our freezer has the opposite problem to your fridge – it’s in the conservatory/dog room, so even when the doors and windows are wide open and the dogs come and go at will, the temps can get quite high, close maybe to the upper end of the working environment.

[Ed P]

If it truly is an asbestos roof then do not be tempted to do a DIY as deep trouble could ensue(£30000+costs)! Unfortunately when the word asbestos comes up the £££s signs start to mount, not only for the demolition work but also the waste disposal via approved transport to an approved site. link

I think I would rather move house than do that! We had enough issues when a (non-asbestos) kitchen ceiling had to be replaced as a result of a water leak. In the end it turned out to have been installed post-asbestos ceiling days but the palaver that went around the testing (moon suits etc) made me glad that it was just an Insurance job.

[Author]

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