Manchester Arena.

[Ed P]

Actually my Sunni friend was taking a pot shot at the Saudis, his view of Shias is actually very broad minded.

The  Egyptian cleric Abu Hamza is a Salafist who supports the Arab Caliphate.  It is all in his wiki  plus the wiki on Salafi Jihadism.

For the record just in case anyone does not know, Shias are not responsible for any terrorism in the west. Shias do however commit terrorism in Israel which is one reason why the US is unfriendly towards Iran and Syria (its more complicated than that, but it is one reason). All recent terrorist acts in the West have been committed by nominal Sunnis, in reality Salafists.

[Richard]

You see I would have said he was a thoroughly unpleasant delusional peasant with no meaningful religion, who made a mistake building bombs and failed to kill himself, ‘for his cause’. We compounded the error by allowing him in to the UK to breed more morons his tenure being extended by string of civil wrongs lawyers of the ilk of Phil Shiner of PIL. Whose cause was money making solely and impurely.

As for the Russians and the Turks and other unpleasant killers, there not a word?

[Ed P]

According to the BBC’s investigations the mass-murderer of children participated in Cameron’s disastrous regime change in Libya. He fought for an Al-Qaeda brigade in Libya at the age of 16 during his UK school holiday!

Almost unbelievable that the Beeb could dig out something like this without our security services having him on a red-list. Opposition comments about under-resourcing and cuts to our Police services by Teresa May look like they may well be factors.

[Richard]

It has been widely reported that his family fled Libya before he was born because they were on Gaddafi’s ‘no live list’. He was apparently know to MI5 as has also been reported. Investigations would and should be handled by the much boosted but still short staffed secret services, not Mr Plod. His family are known to be unlikely peace makers though they might be termed ‘broken pieces desiring’. I am sure that I wrote about his family background in an earlier comment, though it might have been one of the postings that did not make it due to finger troubles deleting as I wrote. He did appear to move onto the fringes of even his tribe. His known profile was certainly one to not just watch but upon which to take action, he perfectly fitted the profile of a very high risk operative. I am a strong advocate of intelligence led profiling. The lack of previous action is hard, (for me) to understand. I hope the lessons are being learned. But no doubt some clown will object to ‘freedom fighters being harassed’ if any such actions are taken.

 

[Ed P]

It also looks as though the Didsbury Mosque and its Imam has a role judging by the leaflet they hand out to the public. The Imam cannot duck under the ‘unofficial’ leaflet carp raised by a ‘Mosque attendee’  – his Mosque, and therefore his responsibility to authorise what is disseminated. It would not surprise me if the Imam is not one of those my Sunni friend complains about.

BBC link

[Tippon]

Whether we like it or not, it’s difficult to police members of the public handing out flyers inside your building. If they were stood at the door handing them out, then yes, the imam is at fault. If someone is inside and discreetly passing them out though, it’s much harder to spot, especially if there’s a decent sized congregation. The fact that a stereotypical looking English man was apparently given a ‘very expensive package’ containing DVDs and anti western material seems a bit odd though, especially if it happened after the bombing. Surely material like that would be given to disaffected Muslim youths, people who would be more likely to be receptive.

This is another story I saw online earlier, which makes me wonder again why nothing was done about the attacker beforehand:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/salman-abedi-manchester-attack-reported-family-imam-friends-did-nothing-a7757726.html

[Dave Rice]

Yes, a lot more is going to come out and it’s not going to be edifying on either side. It does appear the moderate Muslim community has found the courage to push back and point out that they are reporting these people.

Internment doesn’t work and seems to be a largely knee jerk reaction. In WWII  in one Isle of Man camp over 80 per cent of the German and Austrian internees were Jewish refugees. But the failure of the Norwegian campaign had led to an outbreak of spy fever.

[Bob Williams]

MI5 (and associated organisations) were doing what the Security Service always does: trying to trap the whole network by letting one suspect walk free and consider himself safe. Unfortunately, on this occasion (and apparently on others) they gave him too much freedom, but at least almost all the connections had already been made, hence the roll-up of what appears to be a network. How many more attacks would have been made by members of this network, is of course impossible to say.

The Intelligence Services have suffered from the same problems as the Police and Armed Forces: reduced budgets due to government cuts. Not enough people and not enough resources in place to have “eyes on” all suspects. The meaningful word here being ‘suspects’ – our society and our laws exist to protect citizens from having their human rights taken away by arrest without proof of wrongdoing. Certain legal businesses bend and stretch the rules to defend criminals and terrorists, for financial gain.

Most Muslims who do the “right thing” by reporting those radicals they know to be dangerous, are puzzled by the seeming inability of the law to react and arrest the radicals immediately. It has to be remembered that those doing the Right Thing, may also be putting themselves in harm’s way. I know this from my Iraqui mate, who assures me that is a real prospect, there being areas of our towns and cities where it is dangerous for a Muslim to be seen by other Muslims, speaking to a police officer.

I also have to comment upon previous posts here, regarding immigrants who first came here, having children who looked ‘different.’ I remember the first black family coming to my old village. They came from a Carribean island with a 3 month old son and proceeded to have more children. When the firstborn was 17 and working as a miner, they left him and took the rest of the family back to the island. He was forced to move out of the family home and left homeless, but the village supported him. My dad found him rooms with a widow my parents knew and he continued working at the pit. He became one of our bunch of 9 mates, all white lads, and became a village lad. He married a white village girl and they had 2 girls, mixed race of course. The girls both married white lads from the village and they are still a part of the village today. Last time I saw my old mate, he was walking out his new grandson and looking as proud as any granddad. I believe they were all accepted and never made to feel ‘different’ because they came to a village, not any large urban community.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Ed P]

The town where I was raised *’benefited’ by having a contingent of US troops in a nearby camp. Although there were strict rules against ‘fraternization’ by the black troops men will be men and girls will be girls. and as a result there were a few Afro-British kids running around when I grew up. This was hard for the kids but really only due to the way their mothers were treated. Most people totally ignored the colour thing for the children, but having a child out of wed-lock really brought the cold shoulder by the other mothers in the town and I can still remember the over-loud comments about sluts well into the 50s. So while I accept that looking different can be a problem, social and religious mores are even more of an issue.

*The benefits to the town were due to all the carp driving of trucks and armoured vehicles and the brand-new replacement stuff that was quickly nicked from somewhere and re-erected by the US troops.

[Tippon]

Bob Williams wrote:

MI5 (and associated organisations) were doing what the Security Service always does: trying to trap the whole network by letting one suspect walk free and consider himself safe. Unfortunately, on this occasion (and apparently on others) they gave him too much freedom, but at least almost all the connections had already been made, hence the roll-up of what appears to be a network.

Sadly, I don’t think it was a deliberate attempt, and any benefits may have been accidental. It may have been said in this thread, but it takes 36 people to monitor one suspect. I was reading this week that there are currently about 3,000 suspects, or persons of interest, and only 4,000 MI5 staff. 1,300+ armed police have been laid off in the last few years, and 20,000 police officers and staff have been laid off over the last few years.

[Ed P]

What I really do not understand is why MI5 is the only group cited as being capable of monitoring these people. The police Special branch used to play this role and increasing the police force as suggested by the Opposition could at least transfer some of the work-load required to police general extremist activity. There is in any case a considerable overlap between terrorism, the funding of terrorism and what could be considered to be normal police work. The Albanian Mafia for example are believed to play a significant role in drugs & the smuggling of illegal immigrants with the proceeds going towards funding terrorism.

I sense another May weak wobble may yet emerge. I would not just have a Schadenfreude if this happens but would guffaw out loud. When she was Home Secretary she pushed through the emasculation and politicization (Police Kommissars) of our police forces. :negative:

[The Duke]

Got to keep in house ed, Mi5 will be easier for narration.

[dwynnehugh]

Bob Williams:

The meaningful word here being ‘suspects’ – our society and our laws exist to protect citizens from having their human rights taken away by arrest without proof of wrongdoing. Certain legal businesses bend and stretch the rules to defend criminals and terrorists, for financial gain.

Could I please ask by what you mean in the last sentence – the implication is that ‘certain legal businesses …. financial gain’ might imply solicitors and barristers who are paid to defend such “suspect”. If my interpretation is correct are such people, as despicable as they are, not entitled to a defence? Unfortunately barristers are not able to pick and choose their clients – they work on the taxi rank principle – first come first served.

Again if my understanding of your comment is right, for what matters would you agree that a ‘suspect’ is entitled to a solicitor and any defence? Once you start eroding the legal system where does it stop? Could anyone here find themselves in a position where a defence solicitor was not available to them?

” .. our society and our laws exist to protect citizens from having their human rights taken away by arrest without proof of wrongdoing.”  Yet it appears to me that that is exactly what your last sentence in that paragraph suggests?

 

The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

[blacklion1725]

Went to a concert in Hatfield (Hertfordshire) last night (Toots and The Maytals – Jamaican reggae legend for all you headbangers!). Quite a modest scale event – outdoors but at a guess a couple of thousand capacity. Took about 45 minutes to get in, three search stations and two cordons of armed police! Very thorough searching of bags, had to demonstrate mobile phones working etc.

Am guessing this is going on elsewhere, not complaining, just a sign of these times post-Manchester.

[JayCeeDee]

They were probably also checking you for excess baggage – flying on Ganja Airlines!!:)

 

Corrected spelling to Ganja from Ganga – out of touch these days!!

[Tippon]

blacklion1725 wrote:

Went to a concert in Hatfield (Hertfordshire) last night (Toots and The Maytals – Jamaican reggae legend for all you headbangers!). Quite a modest scale event – outdoors but at a guess a couple of thousand capacity. Took about 45 minutes to get in, three search stations and two cordons of armed police! Very thorough searching of bags, had to demonstrate mobile phones working etc. Am guessing this is going on elsewhere, not complaining, just a sign of these times post-Manchester.

I went to the Hay Festival yesterday, and it was nothing like that. There was a bag search on entry, and two armed officers patrolling with big smiles on their faces, and that was it.

[Bob Williams]

dwynnehugh wrote:

Bob Williams: The meaningful word here being ‘suspects’ – our society and our laws exist to protect citizens from having their human rights taken away by arrest without proof of wrongdoing. Certain legal businesses bend and stretch the rules to defend criminals and terrorists, for financial gain. Could I please ask by what you mean in the last sentence – the implication is that ‘certain legal businesses …. financial gain’ might imply solicitors and barristers who are paid to defend such “suspect”. If my interpretation is correct are such people, as despicable as they are, not entitled to a defence? Unfortunately barristers are not able to pick and choose their clients – they work on the taxi rank principle – first come first served. Again if my understanding of your comment is right, for what matters would you agree that a ‘suspect’ is entitled to a solicitor and any defence? Once you start eroding the legal system where does it stop? Could anyone here find themselves in a position where a defence solicitor was not available to them? ” .. our society and our laws exist to protect citizens from having their human rights taken away by arrest without proof of wrongdoing.” Yet it appears to me that that is exactly what your last sentence in that paragraph suggests?

Dwynne I have taken some time before responding to that, because there is obvious confusion about my reference to ” certain legal businesses “. Please read this for one reference:     https://tinyurl.com/zaqnok2

Then this:     https://tinyurl.com/z3myy77     Followed by this:     https://tinyurl.com/y77s598v

And for the clincher:     https://tinyurl.com/zecsxey

Those are the kind of ” legal businesses ” that I was referring to. I worked in the Legal Services department of a County Council and one of my tasks was to visit local solicitors offices in connection with the two Officers that I worked for, in two different disciplines. One was relatively harmless: Common Land Searches. The other was Criminal Law, working for a very talented lady who worked with Social Services in Family Law and Drugs offences. I will always be subject to legal strictures regarding specific cases, but I can tell you that the second Legal Officer opened my eyes to ” certain legal businesses “. There were solicitors known to be acting for people in ways they should not have been, using tactics and methods which were illegal, but these people were practically Teflon-coated. I have no quarrel with perhaps 98% of solicitors, most of whom are hard-working, scrupulously clean individuals. Then come the ambulance-chasers and the bent buggas, and believe me they exist. We have a legal and judicial system which is imperfect, but we have to endure the imperfections in order that some 98% of it works.

 

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[D-Dan]

Bob Williams wrote:

I also have to comment upon previous posts here, regarding immigrants who first came here, having children who looked ‘different.’ I remember the first black family coming to my old village.

I hate to be pedantic, but I’m going to be. The first immigrants here eventually became what we consider to be the white, indigenous group.

There’s no such thing as a native Brit.

Arch Linux, on a Ryzen 7 1800X, 32 GB, 5 (yes -5) HDs inc 5 SSDs, 4 RPi 3Bs + 1 RPi 4B - one as an NFS server with two more drives, PiHole (shut yours), Plex server, cloud server, and other random Pi stuff. Nice CoolerMaster case, 2 x NV GTX 1070 8GB, and a whopping 32" AOC 1440P monitor.

[Ed P]

D-Dan wrote:

Bob Williams wrote:

I also have to comment upon previous posts here, regarding immigrants who first came here, having children who looked ‘different.’ I remember the first black family coming to my old village.

I hate to be pedantic, but I’m going to be. The first immigrants here eventually became what we consider to be the white, indigenous group. There’s no such thing as a native Brit.

Dwnne may be offended by that – the Celts were probably here before anyone (ex the Neanderthals) They were also in Cornwall, Brittany Portugal and a bit of Alsace according to recent DNA/linguistic and research.into old bones

[dwynnehugh]

Nah!!!  Dwnne ain’t offended, he’s just wondering what nationality the last person will be in the UK, as he/she switches the lights off.  😥

I know that many of my Welsh compatriots consider themselves to be “God’s chosen own”.  Myself – I’m a bit more sceptical.

Just had a thought – perhaps the sentiments of my first para may well be emblazoned on the inside of the main door to the White House – the way DTs staff are leaving?

The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

[Author]

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