Manchester Arena.

[The Duke]

It may not help stop future attacks, but the politicians will sure use atrocities like this to their political advantage.

I see this page got a little heated. This is what happens when you have an hysterical press.they just feed the fire. I’ve not read anymore in the situation since yesterday am 45min radio ear raping that gave no real info. I listened to books the rest of the days traveling.

When/if it solved I’ll take that info please, untill then they should shut up. As Dave Dan said just carry on.

On that not, I recall Paris last year, hotels and flights was almost being given away the next day. I asked the wife did she fancy it. The chances of being caught in an attack, is next to zero, the chances of a second less.

I often do think of bombs at football, not inside, but in the avenues leading to grounds, welbeck Road outside of anfield (kop end) turns into a a very dense sea of bodies. Both before and after the game, as that’s the way to town.

Most footballs ground are the same.

 

[Richard]

Steve, I agree with you. I see the entire investigation team are of the same opinion over the USA leaking confidential information while the investigation was at an early stage. Questions about information sharing are  being raised if they cannot stop blabbing.

One can reasonably ask on whose side are the USA playing?

[Ed P]

Richard the only info I saw/heard being linked by the US was that this was the action of a suicide bomber. Tbh I would have thought that this fact would be completely obvious so ‘blabbing’ may be a harsh criticism, as I’m sure the terrorists hierarchy would have expected that to be known immediately.

The one concern I had was the BBCannouncement  that this came from ‘official US sources’ as this suggests a number of different things on different levels that officialdom may not want revealed. Different cat different bag.The ones who let that particular cat out were Brits.

You may not have as many dealings with US officialdom as I, but they are only ever on one side – their own, and they play by different rules. It is not for nothing that the non-public-facing offices of US Embassies are littered with posters saying ‘America First!’

[Richard]

Sorry the blathering idiots gave out the name, his travel history and all the details that the investigating police wanted withheld until such time as they had been able to make good on their investigations. Your statement shows why we need to reconsider giving them anything (as has already been threatened), other than false information. Blithering, blathering idiots appears more like praise when considering their totally objectionably  crass behaviour. I do wonder how well it would go down if we were to say publish full details of Trumps itinerary, since we should want to adopt their way and show that when I comes to OUR officials we want to show that ‘but they are only ever on one side – their our own, and they we must play by their different rules.’ After all if we play by the same rules (those for dumb asses), how can they possibly object?

My last dealings with the US officialdom were dealing with official visits by their people to  a foreign state back in 1980s, though I did once make an official diplomatic protest during a meeting in DC. They rolled out someone to come and see me along with a support delegation who kept mum, of course.

[Ed P]

Because of my job, and a Mid-Atlantic accent US officialdom thought that I was a Yank. I never disabused them (or took advantage). I’m afraid that the real US view of the UK is that we still live in Victorian times and and that Brits mistakenly think Britain is still a world power. However, if they pat us on the head, say there is a meaningless ‘special relationship’ it costs them nothing but makes us wag our tails like good poodles and do what we are told. Sorry for the cynicism but perhaps it explains some of my spleen for TBLiar and his cronies. I’m sure that any who served in Iraq/Afghanistan have even more cynical views particularly with respect to blue on blues, I know that a good friend of mine does.

That said the US has the money and the hardware. GCHQ may have great people but the US has the critical overseas intercept materiel and access.Terrorism is international so we need them on our side, even if they continually treat us as irrelevant.

[Bob Williams]

Well I have spent most of this day in bed, until about 3:45 I think, went down about 10:15 last night, had 3 hours solid, got up, watched some stored pogrammes, went back at 4:45 this morning and fast asleep until 3:45. So I have only just rejoined the debate.

Sleep is something I look upon as Natural Medicine, always have. If I can’t sleep for my regular 6 hours, I am akin to a Grizzly crawling out of his den after a hard hibernation. Today I am all sweetness and light. :whistle:  🙂  😉

Richard is correct: all the details of the attacker, were leaked by some camel turd in the USA, to NBC and CBS, probably for monetary reward. The fact that UK security were trying to draw out his contacts by a pretence of not knowing his ID, does not matter to these people. Had it been ITV or (shudder) the Sun or Mail, those outlets would have been in serious trouble. However, it is a fact that the UK media has been just as guilty of similar exposures in the past. TM the PM should send an open letter to CBS & NBC, to the effect that any more deaths and injuries caused by their actions, will be laid at their door. If the Security Services do not find his cell members in time to avoid another atrocity here, they will be at fault.

Today I was horrified by a post on FB advocating “Deport all Muslims NOW!” Horrified, because it was posted by a close relative. I asked him if that included nurses, doctors, surgeons, police officers, emergency workers, the smashing couple who live next door to his cousin and help her stroke-afflicted husband in and out of the car, and those Muslim taxi drivers who took people wherever they needed to go, for free. His answer: “Give me a solution then!” I told him: there isn’t one, not all people are alike and all most people of any culture, race or religion want, is to live in peace and have the best life they can provide for their families. Just like you, in fact. No response as yet.

Richard thank you for your kind words. I don’t feel great yet, but I am on the mend.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Ed P]

I guess we all read/see different things. Around 6:30am the morning following the murders someone on Radio 4 reported that official US sources have stated that this was a suicide bomber and that the Police know the name of the bomber as they found his credit cards. I neither know or care if the ‘facts’ of that time were accurate, but if the Beeb revealed this around the time CBS etc reported it then maybe we are throwing mud at the wrong targets.

‘Official’ is a helluva lot different from ‘US Government Sources’ as the former implies for whatever reason a deliberate US dissemination of intel. Other than our friend Donald they do not usually shoot from the hip over such things. That said I cannot imagine just why they would do such a thing as the only high profile US citizens involved were known to be safe.

[edit] A genuine but slightly off-topic question – why are these murders not referred to as such? Officially we seem to pussy foot around this obvious designation. Is there some legal stupidity that prevents the use of the obvious word?

[edit] Incidentally Bob that FB post is exactly why I would be much happier if we used specific targeted words for these terrorists rather than generics like Muslim or Islamic which confuse ordinary people and cause them to needlessly blame totally innocent peaceful people. It is my genuine belief that we help to radicalise impressionable people by not being more specific.

[Dave Rice]

Deportation = the action of deporting a foreigner from a country.

Where would they have deported the bomber to? He was British and a Mancunian.

[Richard]

Ed, the early reports I heard and read said the police believed they knew the identity of the bomber but had asked the press not to report the details as the police were following up the leads as fast as they could. The blood stained yanks published the names.

Next alleged forensic images were supplied to the yanks for some unknown reason, the yanks then sold them to the TV stations.

During my time abroad I lived next to a building used by the yanks as an embassy. Several of us went to the sales and bought photography equipment as we were wont to do.  We went on our roof to try out our purchases at the same time that ‘next door’ was pulling down their flag.

The following day our lunch was interrupted by six crew cut gentlemen who received one word answers to their questions until I decided that it was unfriendly. So I suggested what services we could offer to them should they feel the need. They left rapidly and shortly afterwards they moved their embassy.

[Ed P]

To me it smells like the Yanks being annoyed that the UK has used Intel facilities that the Yanks believe to belong to them, and a botched heavy handed smoke-screen. Amber Rudd has displayed previous incompetent behaviour so it would not surprise me if they had just ignored her and kept her out of the loop as the ‘Men in Black’ rarely have anything but contempt for for local police forces.

[Richard]

Dave Rice wrote:

Deportation = the action of deporting a foreigner from a country. Where would they have deported the bomber to? He was British and a Mancunian.

One of the serious problems about press reports is they are often a mix of fantasy and fact many reports are now saying that the threat was known about and widely reported my his community, this would help to spread fear and doubt.

The facts appear to be that his family ran away from Libya years ago to escape Gaddafi. More recently most went back where (again hearsay) reports say that the father was active in his old line of the terror business. The son was reportedly born in Westminster l before moving north eft here where his wheels were reported to be coming off. He was failing at most things he tried. Displays of large flags and chanting in the street were cited along with claims of his espousing revolution and armed insurrection. He appears to have been travelling back and forth to various lands, none known for purity of thought or reasoning powers. That lot suggests that somewhere there might have been grounds for tugging his collar. Now we might just wish to dispose of his remains in a suitable way and a normal burial method does not come to mind.

In short I am saying there appear to be a range of unanswered questions about his and his ‘family’.

 

[Richard]

Ed P wrote:

To me it smells like the Yanks being annoyed that the UK has used Intel facilities that the Yanks believe to belong to them, and a botched heavy handed smoke-screen. Amber Rudd has displayed previous incompetent behaviour so it would not surprise me if they had just ignored her and kept her out of the loop.

Ah, I see the same old song, just one question, if as some reports suggested he was initially indeed from credit card details, how big was the bomb if it blew them across the pond to the land of the incompetent information sellers so they could read the details first before supplying them the other way? I have heard some pretty daft conspiracy theories but that one tops most.

Intelligence relating to crimes in our country do NOT belong to the yanks however much they might want to huff and puff. Perhaps Trump (impeachment willing) might want to delay his visit, for one I feel almost motivated enough to join a valid protest.

[Ed P]

Richard wrote:

Ed P wrote:

To me it smells like the Yanks being annoyed that the UK has used Intel facilities that the Yanks believe to belong to them, and a botched heavy handed smoke-screen. Amber Rudd has displayed previous incompetent behaviour so it would not surprise me if they had just ignored her and kept her out of the loop.

Ah, I see the same old song, just one question, if as some reports suggested he was initially indeed from credit card details, how big was the bomb if it blew them across the pond to the land of the incompetent information sellers so they could read the details first before supplying them the other way? I have heard some pretty daft conspiracy theories but that one tops most.

I frankly do not understand your point, but to answer it, about the same size as one that left a nearly complete detonator and labels. In point of fact we do not (and may never) know all the details surrounding the investigation. Getting too upset about an inexplicable US action may not be a productive move as we may be totally reliant on them for off-shore chatter. For once I would leave it to higher level sober discussion. If we are going to get angry, lets do so about the Salafists and the evil people/nations that fund them.

[Richard]

Ed P wrote:

I frankly do not understand your point, but to answer it, about the same size as one that left a nearly complete detonator and labels. 

My understanding of the reports was that the brass part was the hand held initiator not the detonator, there is a difference. The explosive was said to be an improvised one, and explosions are highly unpredictable. Perhaps you have not seen similar levels of materials recovered after plane explosions. The explosion was apparently caused by an electrical source fed by a battery with more than enough energy to initiate rapid combustion (it can be used to start engines) in a suitably unstable target. Improvised explosives tend to go off when they fancy at the best of times.  Someone I once knew found this out in the mid 1950s. Fortunately his explosive was not constrained, so it burned rapidly, the problem was that some of it did so in his face according to the damage I later saw. He simply had a love of pyrotechnics, (which he may have lost), rather than causing harm.

[Richard]

Current reports state that information will no longer be exchanged from the Manchester Police with the leaky (revenue generating for some) colander that forms the US confidential information safeguarding marketing operation.

[JayCeeDee]

Dave Rice wrote:

Deportation = the action of deporting a foreigner from a country. Where would they have deported the bomber to? He was British and a Mancunian.

Quite so.

 

One of the problems with some British born Muslims is the fact they are almost caught between two camps. The same was said ( descriptively but unfairly ) about children of mixed race back in the 50’s and 60’s – “They were too black to be white, and too white to be black” so they had problems with both camps and grew up into trouble not thinking they belonged.

This is obviously too sweeping a statement to apply to all, but it indicates the problems experienced by a minority and the often unfortunate outcome for them.

The British born Muslims that then go on to carry out the atrocities we’ve seen over the years, haven’t integrated, seem to yearn for their Homeland and get caught up in ( to their minds ) righteous indignation on their brethren’s behalf, not appreciating the fact that they have a better life here than back home, as their parents seem to do.

The only reason they don’t return home and stay there; though there may well be many that do, we just don’t hear about them; is that they want to seem irrelevant/innocent when they return here with malign intent and destructive training.

[Richard]

JayCeeDee wrote:

Dave Rice wrote:

Deportation = the action of deporting a foreigner from a country. Where would they have deported the bomber to? He was British and a Mancunian.

Quite so. One of the problems with some British born Muslims is the fact they are almost caught between two camps. The same was said ( descriptively but unfairly ) about children of mixed race back in the 50’s and 60’s – “They were too black to be white, and too white to be black” so they had problems with both camps and grew up into trouble not thinking they belonged. This is obviously too sweeping a statement to apply to all, but it indicates the problems experienced by a minority and the often unfortunate outcome for them. The British born Muslims that then go on to carry out the atrocities we’ve seen over the years, haven’t integrated, seem to yearn for their Homeland and get caught up in ( to their minds ) righteous indignation on their brethren’s behalf, not appreciating the fact that they have a better life here than back home, as their parents seem to do. The only reason they don’t return home and stay there; though there may well be many that do, we just don’t hear about them; is that they want to seem irrelevant/innocent when they return here with malign intent and destructive training.

I pretty much agree; he, like other displaced persons was seriously confused, apparently abandoned by his parents who ‘went home’ leaving him wandering the world failing at most things he tried and apparently grabbing onto any idea that caught his attention. The term lost soul came to mind reading through the witness allegations.

Why do some races/tribes/religious/whatever groups appear worse affected than others who, albeit with few scattered mental health bumps in their pathway appear to settle more easily and successfully?

[Ed P]

“Why do some races/tribes/religious/whatever groups appear worse affected than others who, albeit with few scattered mental health bumps in their pathway appear to settle more easily and successfully?”

An educated urbane Sunni friend of mine says that to some extent we have brought this all on ourselves. Since the 70s we have allowed overseas elements to fund and send radical Imams to the UK, this still goes on. (There are of course some UK born Imams who are not of this ilk.) His bottom line is that the Government efforts to counteract radicalisation have been abject failures due to their refusing to address a core problem. His solution would be to stop this flow of proselytisers by refusing work permits and put more pressure on the three main funding  nations (Kuwait, Qatar and Saudi Arabia) to constrain their own extremist elements.

Our stupid actions in Libya have of course made all this more difficult as the North African Arabs are now fully engaged rather than constrained.

[Richard]

Sorry Ed the Londinistan issue is far broader than Sunni ‘friend’s painting. We have been possibly rightly criticised by all and sundry by allowing (undesirables as they saw it), just check, almost every country and sect has had a moan. The Russians deal more directly; they kill those they do not like living here. Your Sunni friend was taking a pot shot at the Shias in all reality. When we do deport dodgy imams who were in just one mosque they just carry on via the damned internet gaining a wider half witted audience.

Where did cleric hook come from? Egypt, after years of battles we got rid of him only to remain stuck with his money grubbing odious family. Now the bleeding heart types want us to import more problems in the shape of he economic migrants being slave traded by your North African tribes. Money is their motivation, seasoned with a dash of contempt for the lower tribes/races they are selling. At least Gaddafi is no longer funding the IRA, sadly every problem has more than one dimension.

[The VFM Addict]

Meanwhile politicians seek solutions.    Former UKIP politician Janice Atkinson has called for the death penalty… for suicide bombers  :wacko:

 

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