Manchester Arena.

[Ed P]

Bob Williams wrote:

Ed the terrorists we have to deal with atm ARE Muslims. …..

Wrong Bob, totally wrong. This is like saying that all Christians are Seventh Day Adventists. At least one third of Muslims do not share many of the core beliefs of the Sunnis. Even for those of the Sunni branch the majority do not share the same interpretations of the Koran as the Salafists. By failing to name the Saudi/Qatari backed Salafist Extremists as our enemies we alienate the majority of Muslims.

Unfortunately we and the Americans kow-tow to the arms dealers and shy away from pinning blame where it truly resides.

Richard I disagreed that you had made a racist remark, sectarian maybe.

[Richard]

I am not sure that any religion really embraces drunken drug takers and petty criminals that much, Least of all those who claim to be devout.

On a lighter note, I had an old chap working for me who used to like his beer and cigarettes. One day he told me he was giving u his beer as he was getting near to Allah .

OK, I said, but does he approve of the cigarettes?

His replay was something along the lines of,

I might be getting closer to Allah, but I am not yet that close!

[Bob Williams]

Ed P wrote:

Bob Williams wrote:

Ed the terrorists we have to deal with atm ARE Muslims. …..

Wrong Bob, totally wrong. This is like saying that all Christians are Seventh Day Adventists. At least one third of Muslims do not share many of the core beliefs of the Sunnis. Even for those of the Sunni branch the majority do not share the same interpretations of the Koran as the Salafists. By failing to name the Saudi/Qatari backed Salafist Extremists as our enemies we alienate the majority of Muslims. Unfortunately we and the Americans kow-tow to the arms dealers and shy away from pinning blame where it truly resides. Richard I disagreed that you had made a racist remark, sectarian maybe.

Ed you have taken the wrong stance. I said that the terrorists we have to deal with are Muslim, because that is the religion that the fundamentalists profess to follow. Certain of their leaders twist the words of the Q’ran in order to achieve unquestioning obedience and commit acts like this horror. I am quite aware of the different paths taken by the followers of Muhammed their prophet, having several Muslim friends and also having served in the Middle East. Just as I am aware that there are several different Christian sects, after being one of the “piggies in the Middle” during the Toubles.

The fact is that the terrorist enemy we face is Islamic. The PC brigade can twist and turn around that fact, but it is true. But I do not hold ALL Islamists responsible, only the actual terrorists and those who support them, or do not help the authorities to pick them out. If I was anti-Muslim, I would not have my mate Ibrahim calling me today in tears and saying how much HE hates these despicable people. You can talk to me about Sunnis, Shi’ites and Salafists all you like, but it changes nothing. The evil people who engineered and carried out this attack were Muslim. You cannot deny that.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Jason]

Close to home, this one. I was at a gig in effectively the next venue across (Liverpool Echo Arena) on Saturday. Iron Maiden (very good gig, incidentally). Security was at is should be in an ideal world — show your ticket and you’re in. No checks whatsoever. So I suppose it was inevitable that something like this would happen eventually. Expect massive queues from now on.

Terrible, terrible business. 🙁

[Ed P]

Supposedly Jason the bombing took place outside the ticketed area. There was a short interview at lunchtime with the head of the Entertainment & Media Group (I think). He said that the live media industry would have to reassess what they should do in reaction to this and stressed that the bombing took place outside the ‘secure’ area. He said it presented a major problem to his group and they were unsure at this time just how they would respond.

[Bob Williams]

Here are the facts as we know them for now:

Islamic State has admitted responsibility.

There have been raids and an arrest in Fallowfield of a 23 yo man, with a controlled explosion, possibly at his address. A witness there has stated that “There were about 20 people living there.” The Police know the identity of the dead attacker but will not release this information. He is said to be ” either British or from the UK.”

An 8 yo girl is among the dead. 12 children under 16 are amongst the 59 casualties taken to various hospitals.

There have been raids upon flats in Chorlton.

A sickening development, is the appearance of “fake Tweets” regarding fictitios ‘missing’ relatives. I have absolutely no feeling for these people: they are IMO as bad and as criminal as any terrorist.

Messages of sympathy have poured in from all over the world. All 28 flags of EU nations in Brussels are at half mast.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Richard]

Bob, the fact that you have lived through such events shines through your words, you are one of those who will understand the highly complex thought processes through which many will go and hopefully they will find someone with whom they can open up and help to release their pent up emotions.

I earnestly hope this will be the case.

[Richard]

Ed, If I claimed to be a dusk and swam round naked in a duck ponds protesting for duck liberation, that would not make me a duck. Sadly the Unislamic State lot are rather similar, many from their extreme thug end are hardly of any religion at all, though most are crude criminals, no more no less. I called them psychopaths which is how I see them, so do others. If that is a sect it is news to me. I used the idea of calling myself a duck to show up the silliness of accepting that a nutter doing something on behalf of or in support of some alleged cause while showing little or no relation to that cause is simply a wrong way to deal with them. The fact that I lump them in with such as that odeous Timothy McVeigh should establish that frankly I hold no truck with or belief that they hold any genuine religious, sectarian or racial basis. Any suggestions to the contrary are straight out wrong.

As Bob said the rag tag and bob tail outfit are now claiming it was one of their clutch of personal failures. Perhaps it was, anything that makes them look like a functioning shower tends to get claimed by them. Unverified claims by the dishonest are not proof of much.

ps I have no plan to swim round in a cold duck pond anytime soon ever.

[Ed P]

I’ll stress one last time – I was taking issue for you calling yourself racist. IMO it is totally the wrong word. Race and religion are not the same thing.

[Richard]

Ed P wrote:

I’ll stress one last time – I was taking issue for you calling yourself racist. IMO it is totally the wrong word. Race and religion are not the same thing.

I have done a visual and an electronic search but failed to find that word. I know my typing is especially bad at the moment but both reading and typing not finding the reference you were worried about, I am confused and I guess will remain that way.

[Bob Williams]

Some of us are getting angry at each other’s words here, that is just plain not right. If I have annoyed or upset anyone here, please accept my apology. I speak from experience, without realising that my experiences may not be shared by others.

No excuse for upsetting friends I have found here, but I am also having a bad-health day.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Richard]

Bob, you have not upset me! I understand your multiple source of pain and I know how damaging such issues can be. Set several issues in train I can be a monster. I did not want to shade your bigger issues, but our daughter wanted to reduce some of her treatments, it has not been going well. So my wife was finally persuaded to try to contact the consultant – who is on holiday until partway through next month. So what to do, daughter is showing increased issues so that has to be resolved, today she has asked to restore the previous levels so after a management meeting, (just ended) the die has been cast. I have been trying to manage her money, renewing a deposit nothing too spectacular. However, you would think I was sorting out the national debt, so far two formal complaints to the deposit taker and two long phone calls. They changed their system a few weeks ago and it is clear that it ‘could have gone better’. I have what I believe to be a muscle strain at the top of one leg, It can, if it decides to make moving ‘unpleasant’. No falls yet but even the little issues add up. I understand and sympathise with your state of mind, however, in my book you have NOTHING to be sorry about. I praise your measured tones, considered words and wholly (damn it I have lost the word I wanted) statesman like way.

Happily I have never faced what you have faced, perhaps come closer than I would like sometimes, but never the real deal. Close enough to know how it affected those who were in or on the problems. It can do terrible things, that much I have seen. Some never work again, one or two quietly went rather too much 89 pence to the pound.

(The word I wanted above is still hiding in the back of what brain I have left, sorry about that.)

Please carry on as you were, I value your inputs.

[Ed P]

My apologies Richard – it was actually Bob’s comment and somehow I conflated it onto your remarks.

“I am not making a racist comment here and no one has AFAIK admitted responsibility, but I would not be a Muslim on the streets of Manchester today.”

As I said, to my mind religion does not equal race, but I would agree that ‘in your face’ religious symbology of whatever faith does not go down well, and especially not at this time.

[edit] Sikhs have nothing to do with Islam, but often get assumed to be of the same faith due to their beards and headdress. – hence my remark about symbology

[Richard]

Ah, that clears all issues for all parties. It is very easy to jump in jumpy times, unless health issues stop such movements!

[Jason]

In the last half hour, the national threat level has been raised to the highest level, critical, meaning that another attack is possibly imminent. This is based on information gained from the investigation into the Manchester attack. It would seem that means the terrorist wasn’t acting alone, and the others are in the wind.

[Dave Rice]

You can see that happening. Is my cell compromised? Do I run or do I do what I said I would?

If it’s a wider conspiracy now would be the time to hit elsewhere even if it’s relatively low in body count, it’s the impact?

If I can make this up, so can anyone and I wouldn’t blame anyone being cautious right now. As long as the paranoia doesn’t get wound up to shooting innocent people like de Menezes in 2005 or interning “suspects” like we had in NI.

The chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time are incredibly small. I haven’t checked but you probably have more chance of winning the lottery or guessing a total strangers phone number.

Even if I was going to Manchester tomorrow (and not July 3) or even London / Brussels / Paris I’d still be on the train. As it happens I’ll be on the bus to Yate and walking through the shopping centre on my way from the bus stop to the charity. As a suicide bomber I  could make an impact nearly as big as last night. It has one of the largest Tesco stores in Europe, never mind the rest of the shopping centre, and kids everywhere at the right time(s).

Keep calm and carry on….

[D-Dan]

I work in Manchester city centre, and for the record, apart from armed police when I got off the train this morning, and many fewer commuters when I got back on tonight, the people of Manchester are showing the same resilience that the British  have shown nationwide after acts of terror.

 

I took my lunch at Piccadilly Gardens today, as I usually do during summer months, and there was no sign of terror, no sign of worry. A busy place, equally busy today. The only difference was a (quite good) busker who had brought himself in to sing songs of hope.

 

The moral, no matter what these evil *******s do, we will not be scared, we will not abandon our lives, and we will not relinquish hope.

Arch Linux, on a Ryzen 7 1800X, 32 GB, 5 (yes -5) HDs inc 5 SSDs, 4 RPi 3Bs + 1 RPi 4B - one as an NFS server with two more drives, PiHole (shut yours), Plex server, cloud server, and other random Pi stuff. Nice CoolerMaster case, 2 x NV GTX 1070 8GB, and a whopping 32" AOC 1440P monitor.

[Ed P]

The analysis was made at lunchtime by a Security guy. Basically said, it is not easy to make an explosive belt in this country it needs some skill and access to explosives. Such ‘skilled’ people are not risked. The atrocity was well planned. Therefore the real perpetrator is still loose and will have more bombs.

Now the security back-tracking really starts, and I think no-one will mind GCHQ using its trove of cluster analysis to identify possible contacts. However it will reveal nothing about any contacts which were made face to face. HumInt as always is the most important factor. If the authorities have any sense they should build on the natural sense of revulsion for anyone who targets children.

[Dave Rice]

Yes, I’m afraid we’ll have the think of the children knee jerk reaction that will try and allow even more RIPA to get through.

Watch the blue team introduce it first and then deny it’s making political capital on a tragedy. It’s keeping the nation safe (strong and stable), even though it’s happened on their watch, as did Westminster. If only the Govt and GCHQ and the Yanks / 5 eyes / Israel / whoever could intercept the encrypted message the perpetrator sent before they did the despicable act we could stop such things.

Like all the terrorist movements before it, it will have to be sorted by “political” means (people talking to each other) as nothing else works in either direction. Why are the people who do these things so motivated that they will do them? Insert Islam / Nazi / Catholic Irish / general nutter (Jo Cox) into the equation as much as you like, they all think they have an axe to grind and a cause to espouse.

[Richard]

Dave Rice wrote:

Like all the terrorist movements before it, it will have to be sorted by “political” means (people talking to each other) as nothing else works in either direction. Why are the people who do these things so motivated that they will do them? Insert Islam / Nazi / Catholic Irish / general nutter (Jo Cox) into the equation as much as you like, they all think they have an axe to grind and a cause to espouse.

I am not sure that either talking or ‘political means’ did much to halt past ‘movements’. It certainly did nothing to stop Hitler when Chamberlain came home spouting ‘peace in our time’. The only thing that slowed, (and did not even then obliterate) Nazi beliefs was the defeat and suicide of their deranged leader. Therein lies the crux of the matter. Many ‘movements’ including those with single digit memberships have an element of mental instability lurking at their core. This gets combined with an over whelming feeling that they have been put down/overlooked/disadvantaged which can then make them either ‘pied piper’ type leaders able to draw other misfits in, or ready foot soldiers for so called lone wolf attacks. I see no prospect for negotiation with a band of psychopathic thugs. Their only objective is to glory in the death of as many as possible, including themselves, which they believe results in martyrdom. One famous military leader whose name escapes me said the objective of normal battle is not to die for your cause, but to persuade the other side to get on and die for theirs. Sadly this does not work with those who desire martyrdom.

Public domain items about the bomber suggest that he should have been close to the top of a risk list. Allegedly a frequent traveller, parents had returned to his homeland, possible traumatised by a feeling of displacement, recently showing a marked up tick in public displays of excessive pseudo religious fervor and a vengeful reverence towards the protection and promotion of extremist groups. All of this ‘analysis’/reporting/comment is coming forth after the event so there may well be some embellishment. Intelligence and luck have been valuable in containing previous groups. It is one thing to gather information, it is another to turn it into intelligence and benefit from its use.

Given his background why was the bomber not on a watch list and subject to close examination as he allegedly came and went?

Would I object to such as him being profiled? No I would not. Would I object to such as him being subject to very close covert observation, including all the usual suspect observation methods? No I would not.

I am not in favour of scatter gun sweeps, but I do see merit in holding contact history to allow it to be combed for contacts and threats. If this means anyone who ever had dealings or brief encounters with him needs to be examined, then get on with it now. Civil liberties do not and must not extend to the freedom to kill others for some blood lust, neither should they extend to avoiding prejudicial action against such loony tunes players and quite possibly their supporters.

Civil liberties must extend to the protection of the rights of such as those who died and were injured not to suffer,  but to live normal lives. Frankly that is the only liberty that matters and it was not protected this time.

[Author]

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