I wonder why I bothered

[D-Dan]

Called for a pint after work, and then off to the bus stop to come home. Look down, and there’s someone’s debit card. I picked it up, got home, and immediately set about contacting her bank to let them know it was found, I could return it to the local branch tomorrow, and it was safe. It’s late night opening, and she may not even know she’s lost it. Two calls and a half hour later, I can destroy the card, which means she still has the trouble of waiting for a replacement, when all they needed to do was put a temporary stop on it.

Why did I even bother?

Arch Linux, on a Ryzen 7 1800X, 32 GB, 5 (yes -5) HDs inc 5 SSDs, 4 RPi 3Bs + 1 RPi 4B - one as an NFS server with two more drives, PiHole (shut yours), Plex server, cloud server, and other random Pi stuff. Nice CoolerMaster case, 2 x NV GTX 1070 8GB, and a whopping 32" AOC 1440P monitor.

[Ed P]

You tried, but unfortunately when companies outsource their businesses they have to have rigid rule books. Common sense and customer service goes out of the window.

[dwynnehugh]

Not wishing to be too callous in this matter – if the owner can’t be bothered to ensure that his CCs/DCs are safely with him at all times – then let him / her wait the 7 days to get another one.

After 30 years in the police and having to deal with lost and found property I have no sympathy for very many people who don’t even check that they have their own property with them. Unfortunately these days it is a simple matter of ‘I don’t care, the bank will give me another and refund me if it is used fraudulently’.

I think my own actions would have been to recover it, tell the bank (possibly??) and then simply cut it to pieces and bin it.

The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

[Ed P]

“After 30 years in the police and having to deal with lost and found property I have no sympathy for very many people”

Apparently an attitude shared by the whole of today’s police force as they have said that due to Tzar May’s cutbacks and the overhead of (useless) Police and Crime commissars they are no longer logging lost property. They will for a while  continue to take in found property — presumably for sale!

[edit[ they did not actually give any reasons but we all know why!

[The Duke]

Amazing to thing the police are paid by the public. A terrible attitude to have.

[Drezha]

7 days for a new card? Wow.

Monzo will have me one within two days, and I can still use Apple Pay on the app without the card. And I can put the card on hold there myself.

"Everything looks interesting until you do it. Then you find it’s just another job" - Terry Pratchett

[dwynnehugh]

Unfortunately those who are critical here (either of my response) or to the current L/F Property attitude by the current staff at all police forces – do you have ANY idea of the amount of L/F Property that ends up with the police?  I suspect not.  In a small station you can have >200 items – these need to be sorted, checked for ownership details, entered onto L/F Property Books (in my time – may be computerised now).  Any found ‘monies’ need to be accounted for, submitted through banking procedures etc. etc., valuable ‘non-cash’ items need to be stored securely etc. etc., perishable goods …. ?? It is actually endless and VERY VERY time consuming. Then each and every item needed to be by physically checked each and every month …….  need it go on?

Why should the police be responsible, free of charge, for your lost property or to retain property you may have lost but can’t even be bothered to check to see if it has been handed in?  Other organisations charge a fee for this service AND people complain!

Times have changed and in some ways, not all, the police force is not as it was – 20% cuts, PCSOs et al have added to their woes, in so many cases these days you can’t even get a reply at your local nick!  What is very strange about ‘policing’ is that today you do your last days as a 30yr copper, tomorrow you are plain Mr Jones and regarded by the force as a ‘pariah’ and even the most basic ‘privileges’ you had on your last day are no longer there – they seem to waste a great deal of expertise by doing this.

I for one would have been OVERJOYED if F/L Property had been taken away from the police 30 years ago.  You have no idea the work, hassle and sheer volume that did come in.

The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

[Richard]

@dwynnehugh, I fully understand your position and have considerable sympathy. I understand that the vast number of items do not appear to ever be reclaimed and thus get auctioned off, some being apparently quite valuable items. At one time lost property was regarded as a ‘service’ but as attitudes to ‘stuff’ has changed so the need to monetise everything has also grown. I can also understand the attitude of the banks to lost and found cards. At one time they would try to get cards returned to them, but I understand a probable attitude that once it is known to be out of the holders ‘chain of custody’ it should be considered tainted. Who is to know if the card was once in a stolen bag and e.g. dropped by the thief to encourage the legitimate holder to find it, be relieved and carry on without every realising their loss and so not report it as missing? Thus giving the thief more time to exploit the card details.

Surely in any case, lost and found is technically not a police matter but a civil one unless a crime has been committed? In these days of minimum wage for everyone regardless of their capability or value, it would be impossible to run a civil sort and return operation at least in part staffed by those whose abilities fall below that required for a ‘full pay’ activity? Thus those of restricted capability(1) are blocked from a possible way forward and such activities as property recovery must pay its way or not get done, like everything else. So, making it a cost centre with a profit and loss account becomes the result. Human nature being what it is, auditable records became essential, though the level of skill and training required should fall well below that needed for a paid ‘officer(2)’ in most organisations.

(1) I have several ‘real life candidates in mind who are now unlikely to ever find real world paid work due to their limitations.

(2) Officer in this case being a generic term meaning anyone trained to do other more specifically skilled duties, signalman driver, accountant, etc., not just a police officer.

As for your @dwynnehugh signature, remember the TAWs (tax and wasters) attitude is unless it can be taxed to death it ain’t worth a light though in this world everything has to be paid for one way or another.

[dwynnehugh]

I agree.  BUT based on some 20yrs experience with Lost / Found and Seized Property – we haven’t mentioned SP before have we!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Over the years I have returned items to their original owners only to be told “You took your time”, “I didn’t bother reporting it, as I knew you would return it to me if it was handed in to you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

In my days (retired 15 years ago) to get rid of a FP manky, tatty, empty purse a Superintendent had to attend (£50K+ pa), view the property, ask what had been done to see if we could find an owner, were LP books checked – if the answers satisfied him – he would authorise disposal thereof – I could be watched depositing the item into the refuse bin!!!!!!!!!! (After all I could steal it!!!!!!!!!). Could have gone back later I suppose!

That’s just getting rid of the crap – storage was another matter – generally the most awkward cupboard you could imagine – little shelving, poor light, bad access – you name it – we had it.

Seized Property is another NIGHTMARE – the police are like magpies – it might be useful – seize it ‘just in case’ – I have seen 3 Transit van loads coming in – emptying them took hours – entering them into the SP Books was another nightmare – EACH and EVERY item had to be listed individually.  What do you put the stuff in afterwards? Where can you keep the big stuff?  a complete NIGHTMARE!!!!!!!!

I understand my own force now uses an industrial estate storage unit – may be units by now.

I believe that owing to cost restraints there are numerous things the police could be dealing with but lost and found property is not on the list.

Police &CCom – don’t get me started – the old police committee cost very little and it worked – we now have another ivory tower in the chain where (in my case) a retired inspector can instruct a Chief Constable!

Sorry lads got to go – that bottle of pills looks too tempting! ??

The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

[Ed P]

Unfortunately Richard unless there is a change in the law your suggestion cannot work. The Police have to be in the  chain because of the ‘stealing by finding’ interpretation/case law of the Theft Act.

[dwynnehugh]

Richard – may not have read the background to your comment correctly but police do not have to be involved in F/L Property – railway stations, bus companies have their own system which has no police involvement at all. The law re ‘Theft by Finding’ only needs a reasonable person to make reasonable efforts to locate the owner.  There is nothing in UK law that says lost / found property MUST be handed in to the police or even telling them you found it.

The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

[Alan Wood]

Why should the police be responsible, free of charge, for your lost property 

It is not Free of charge. The police are financed by government and council tax to perform their duties.

[dwynnehugh]

Alan – you have a very good point – but over time the police have become the bucket for everything that nobody else wanted to do – many many years ago it was the police’s duty to visit and watch sheep dipping at local farms and Lord knows how many other forgotten duties I wonder.

The sad truth is that looking after lost and found property is very, very time consuming – especially the found bits.  More policemen have lost their jobs over Found Property problems than have ever been killed in the line of duty!

The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

[Alan Wood]

I wasn’t disputing the reasoning only the statement.

[The Duke]

Yes Chris, my lad lost his monzo card last month, 2 days and it was here. And all we had to do was open thr app, “freeze’l” the card, and hit, order new.

About ten years ago my wallet dropped out of my pocket getting into my car, (in kwicksaze carpark) , as soon as I realised it took me ages to cancel my cards over trh phones, etc before my new cards arrived, a letter from trh local police station turned up saying they had my wallet.

A lady had handed it in, all money still there. Sadly she never left her name or number so I couldn’t thank her. Still had to wait for the new cards.

Back to monzo, thr good thing if you set up android pay (probably applies to Apple too), you can freeze the card, if you don’t have it, then simply unfreeze it, as your in a que, pay by android pay, and then re freeze the card. So your never out of a card. That’s what my lad did.

Since I lost my my wallet, I’ve since always had a spare wallet with cards in it to a differnt account that I can use as a back up. Also since before that incedednt, (wife not replacing card) I have mastercard that lives in the car that is used for fuel only, (with trh number in the glove box, for anyone that’s borrowed the car), thst too doubles up as a spare if I forget my wallet.

However these days I quite often don’t carry a wallet as I rely on my phone, so I’m finding I have to fall anck on the ‘car card’ quite often, simple cos not having a wallet is becoming the norm.

I wish Google would let its users users pick a limit. I’ve been hoping they would become a bank, even if a solimole one, where I charge it with money so that they don’t have to obay the cards limitations. I here (not sure if true) apple pay in some situations let’s you go abuve £30. For that feature alone, I’d may be willing to swap side. For them that have known me long enough no that’s a big statement for me.

 

[D-Dan]

Not altogether sure why you even brought the police into this. I certainly didn’t, nor have I. I took my own time and expense to contact the issuing bank and handle it that way, and tonight, despite my being confident that the card has been cancelled (something I was trying to avoid for the owner’s sake), I took it to the local branch of the issuing bank and handed it over.

Now, had the card been found by someone else, let’s call them scum, and used, then a crime has been committed and the police would have more work on their hands, theoretically. The reality, of course, is that the police no longer care about petty crime unless they witness it, and then the book is thrown at the perpetrator. Meanwhile, less trivial crimes are ignored.

All of the time, we still pay our taxes for this so called protection.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not criticising the officers themselves. Their numbers have been decimated to a point that they can’t possibly do their job effectively, but such a dismissive attitude is just wrong.

And, of course, begs the question, would you be equally dismissive if it was your bank card (contactless) that was accidentally lost?

Arch Linux, on a Ryzen 7 1800X, 32 GB, 5 (yes -5) HDs inc 5 SSDs, 4 RPi 3Bs + 1 RPi 4B - one as an NFS server with two more drives, PiHole (shut yours), Plex server, cloud server, and other random Pi stuff. Nice CoolerMaster case, 2 x NV GTX 1070 8GB, and a whopping 32" AOC 1440P monitor.

[dwynnehugh]

D-Dan – I tend to make certain that I do not loose my valuable personal property – contactless or otherwise – because I care about my own stuff – so many don’t give a damn nowadays – it’s insured, they’ll pay out – nobody is at a loss being the predominant view. We ALL pay for this – shops add a % to each item sold to cover for theft – we pay.

I don’t think you can judge me unless you have actually dealt with L/F Property and the attitude of owners. I accept that the police are paid from public funds – but note that the each police officer also contributes to that fund. These days the powers that be have decided that CC fraud will be reported to the banks and not the police – (1) Keeps down crime numbers so the public don’t see how really bad it is (2) The bank used to report such offences to the police as 1 single crime – see (1) again – though several 100 frauds might be involved.

Don’t blame the police officer – I have been one for 30 years, I see the difficulties current cuts in wages and staff have made to general crime detection rates, the introduction of PCSOs – so that the gullible public think there’s a policeman on the streets.  The closing of rural police stations, moving of specialist squads to central locations, specified opening hours of main stations …. the list is endless. Perhaps there is a realism that has got into the police system in recent years – we can’t be everything to everyone – owners have a responsibility as well.

Some years ago I did a survey on the section I was responsible for – almost 40% of my crime was directly attributable to owners who showed no concern about their possessions.

Would you prefer to see a police officer out dealing with ‘real’ crime or sitting in the police station dealing with L/F Property that the owner doesn’t give a damn about?

The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

[Ed P]

No arguments with anyone about the appalling decisions made by May following her disastrous Police Conference meeting, and her decimation of the Police Forces. She conned the public with comments about saving money but rejected all the County amalgamation proposals from Chief Constables (these would have produced far greater savings by chopping chiefs and support workers rather than the front line) as she feared a stronger coordinated Police voice.

Unfortunately we are where we are. I actually welcome PCSOs as the good ones get to know their patch and the criminals (real and potential) in it. Better them than nothing and better this than May’s stupid idea of doing everything through tech and intercepting all communications (without warrants). This would only ever catch amateurs, professional criminals have far more potent tech at their disposal such as USB dead letter drops or encrypted software defined radio.

She manages to make a complete cock-up of everything she touches. It would not be so bad if it only affected Torys when in opposition but unfortunately she continued to be promoted way above her competence level and now has a whole country to cock-up.

[The Duke]

“I don’t lose stuff because I care about it” is such a pompous and arrogant answer. My local police station  was happy to send me a letter and was very nice about it. Shame it no longer exists. It was closed about the time they had my wallet handed in. My missing wallet may of pissed them over the edge lol. I can imaging the police officer, going metal, “right F-it, these un caring barstewadrs do not deserve me, I quit” lol. Such an arrogant reply. Do police not get taught compassion, and a bit of manners.

Give a police officer is paid by the public to serve the public, they should just do whatever job is put up with them. And they don’t need a thank you, I’d give one as I have manners, but ultimately their thank you is called wages. The task in hand shouldn’t matter what it is, you should just get on with it, not matter how repetitive, or meaningless the officer finds it. As at the end of the day no one cares. That’s the issue with many officers, most just don’t care, usless or are bent.

I rearly interact with PO I’m my area, except one who I know hates his job, that I drink with (traffic cop) , but the tales form back home get worse as the years go by.

We had an old head mistress with an attitude just like this. She banned parents from cantering school grounds because she didn’t like to them moaning about school issues. It’s a shame as she was at the for 30 years, she was retired on medical issues. We seen it coming.

Just remember the thank you, paid for your home and to raise your family. Not a bad thank you after all.

 

[dwynnehugh]

Duke – I’m not really surprised that you call my comment ‘pompous and arrogant’ – unfortunately your later comments seem to suggest that you live live in some ‘rose tinted world’ where everything is hunky dory. The reality is so different.

Perhaps that hole in the road should be filled in by a police officer – after all someone could put the job in front of them. Your drains are blocked – call ‘999’ – will they send ‘Dyno-Bobby?’

With the attitude you display to the police I am certainly not surprised that so many officer nowadays display the same arrogance that you show.  Whilst I’m sure that all officers will take heart and strength from your ‘paid by the public’ comment – would it come as a surprise to you to know that officers are members of the public and also contribute as well?

The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

[Author]

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