Good news, not so good news.

[Richard]

Yes, I heard that about the Cray territory from many sources, including a neighbour who knew all about those times. She idly watched the comings and goings at a laundrette used for money transfers when nothing else was entertaining her.

Now, Stratford and many other areas sound more like a don’t go area than anything else, yet property programmes call it up and coming. The shopping centre and train station there is not safe from gun and knife crime.

[Ed P]

I think ‘up&coming’ areas need a lot of intestinal fortitude if you are investing in property. That said there are enormous profits to be made – the Kings Cross area in the 1980s was absolutely horrible and property prices reflected that fact, but now it is transformed and property prices are through the roof.

[Richard]

Yes, I agree, though it does not always have to be as bad as Kings Cross. I missed a couple of much safer areas and to be honest safer bets. When the M1 was bing extended some properties plunged in value to the point that I might have been able to buy a flat there. There were programmes on TV about the development blight, I think they were about £3,000 ~ 4,000. Each at the time and almost everyone was up for sale, 58 out of 60 I heard. Double glazing was offered, the job was completed and the places quadrupled in price in something like 18 months. The last time I checked they had continued ever upwards. A major sewage scheme blighted another area of ‘reasonable’ houses. They halved in price, only to bounce back and beyond a year or two later when all was done and dusted – especially the dusted bit! Both were safe bets and probably a faster payback than many. Foolishly or did I hold the moral high ground by holding back ? I had at least a few doubts subsequently.

[JayCeeDee]

Ed P wrote:

He took pride in showing me around some of the East End pubs and hang-outs of the Kray twins etc. Funnily enough as long as you were not ‘involved’ in any way and minded your Ps & Qs it was perfectly safe and rather like being in the middle of a detective story.

Bit different now, the area around Stratford can be positively dangerous with some of the spaced-out characters that inhabit it..

Perversely, at that time, the whole areas were generally safer for those not in that scene, as the would-be-troublemakers went elsewhere, instead of running the risk of lifting a handbag from, or assaulting, someone with “local” connections. As you say, the modern spaced out brigade don’t put a sensible thought together while in pursuit of the next fix.

[Richard]

The expression often used back then was don’t sh*t on your own door step.

It was even more true if it was someone-else’s like the Cray’s patch. They had a reputation for sorting out trouble makers. It is all gone now with all sorts of racial, ethnic and location based groups all warring, so no one is trusted and everyone becomes the enemy.

[Bob Williams]

A fellow Air Tech in the AAC, once told me that his older brother had ‘upset’ Ronnie Kray by refusing his ‘advances’. Beaten up, slashed and escaping death, his brother emigrated to Australia.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Richard]

That was an unfortunate tale.

I was briefly connected to a witness protection job. A phone call came through, it checked out so I put things in train. For once all the bits worked and it was sorted in a couple of hours., it was pure dumb luck.

I only found out after the work went through what the case was, though no other details, I did not want to know as in cases like that it was best not to know.Obviously no audit trail paperwork was created.

I never did collect the pint I was promised, though others did the hard work and took the brunt of the action so that was only right.

[The Duke]

Never lived in london, worked around greater London for 12 months bits that’s it.

About 99/2000/01, i came home on leave, and my old man, said the hatchet man is in the pub tonight. I had no idea what he was on about, this was the time of lock stock, so harry the hatchet always comes to mind first when i think back, but it was actually Frankie frasre, on some UK tour telling tales in shitty pubs. This one was the pub next to the station pub in Ellesmere port.

He has an interesting life, but he came across a dick, but all the men 40+ , mostly alchies, was hanging off his word. Also loads of older guys turned out to see him .

I found it very strange if honest. I was around 18-20 at the time.

[Richard]

If the Pub was as basic as you suggest with a ‘clientele’ whose lives had not been as stretching as your probably had been to that date, I can understand how anyone could hold their interest. I knew nothing of Frankie Fraser he may well have been as ‘interesting’ (not) as a speaker as you said. I guess one point in his then favour was that he found a better way to earn a crust. A bit of research suggested a long and winding tale of misadventure with several diagnosis of insanity, though a suggestion that he could control himself if there was a point to being careful. Potentially his life should have contained enough of interest to make a good talk, perhaps he held back the juicy bits? He died in November 2014.

[The Duke]

I gist remember he spoke of the krays, and the Richardsons, and about a lot of gruesome attacks and the like, also a lot of prison stories. Iirc he spent about 30 odd years inside and had not long got out.

So probably half his life to that point inside. Give the first 20 years was as a kid, he really managed to mess his whole life up in the next, and paid for it the next 40. That’s what i took away from the night.

Each to their own, but it didn’t interest me. My dad was hooked, and he had some adventures, including the Falklands with the paras, (yuk). But i think his age group was brought up on these tales.my dad would have been born around the time he went inside. So that whole scene 10 years after the fact (the mid-70s when he was a teen), was probably seen through rose tinted glasses and with excitement. I don’t know, i just thought it a stage gig.

I’m sure he had half his hand cut off too, but i could be imagining that he may have said he cut someone’s hand off.

[Richard]

Yes he racked up 42 years ‘inside’ and his tale was something to appeal to a limited group and, like you I am not one to turn out for such a show. He started young at 10 years old but he lived to a surprisingly ripe old age of 90 in spite of it all. There is quite a full write-up  in various places,. I don’t think he ever served in the forces though he was ‘head hunted’ for the forces once or twice, he never quite arrived with them. Perhaps their gain not getting him was his loss, but given his long life, perhaps not. His last couple of years were neither comfortable nor colourful, I don’t envy him or his family his passing; nor any other part of his life. I knew a few of his stomping grounds later on, before they really changed, though only on a passing through basis – I am glad I did not live there they were not easy places.

[Author]

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