Future Batteries

[Bob Williams]

On Lincolnshire beaches we see the effects of bunker scraping all the time. In a deeper sea with a lot more space between adjoining landmasses, this would be mostly absorbed and unseen. However, the shallow North Sea deposits the black scrapings as tides come in. One would think that satellite resources could be dedicated to spotting the offenders. The problem is caused by ships, usually older vessels which have served many owners, discharging oil from almost empty bunkers. This oil is at the bottom of the tanks and contains a toxic sludge composed of old oil, paint and tiny metal fragments. This is carried out either before bunkering at sea from a fuel tanker, or as the vessel is almost at the port where it is to take on more fuel. This extensive PDF gives a long story, but scroll to Page 5 for the meat:

file:///C:/Users/Bob/Downloads/EN_Oil%20Discharge%20Manual.pdf

There is a great deal of anger about this, especially as all our beaches are now Blue Flag beaches, and great for tourism.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Ed P]

As you know the practice is illegal, but we just do not have anywhere near enough Coastal Watchers/Guards or enforcement vessels.

As we complete the EU withdrawal, we will need some huge investments in marine Coast Guard vessels and Fast Patrol Boats otherwise the problems of fish poaching, illegal deballasting/tank washing/dumping and illegal immigrants will overwhelm our systems.

[Richard]

Bob, I think you posted a link to the item on your machine

(file:///C:/Users/Bob/Downloads/EN_Oil%20Discharge%20Manual.pdf)

The reference to C:/users/Bob/Downloads suggests it is not an internet link.

It is an old issue, in the sense that I have heard people fuming about it for many years, even back in the 1950s. Other variations do crop up from time to time with white to grey lumps of something not nice also wash up on beaches.

[keith with the teef]

I’m not to sure about that at all! What I am more interested in, is: Bluetooth telepathy. Yes, when the day comes when we do not have to open our mouths in converation and smell one and the others breath is definatley the future. 🤑

[Ed P]

This do as a start?

CES 2020

[Ed P]

Bob, I’m not disputing that wind and solar reduce gas consumption and potentially reduce CO2 production. Unfortunately if you are not planning to dim all the lights when the sun goes down (ditto very high or very low wind speeds) or to tell factories to close, then the gap has to be bridged. This requires some pretty hairy and potentially costly  forecasting as it is necessary to have sufficient gas turbines to balance the short fall in the various regions.

Btw as an Energy Engineer and Chemical Engineer I think I know enough about how wind generators work, and also about our energy system as a whole. What perhaps you do not know is that most Electricity Distribution companies are struggling with just how to encourage solar home owners to install battery storage that will be available to the grid at short notice. (Not as easy as you may think as domestic solar is on a single phase system. rather than three phase so the balancing act is limited to the area served by the nearest transformer.) Better batteries with more capacity would unlock a lot of potential and flexibility.

An additional problem I’ll just touch on is the balancing act that is required between resistive load (e.g. a heating element), and inductive load (e.g. big motors  in workshops etc., spinning/non-spinning as Richard says). That too is on an area by area balance.

Power distribution is a finely balanced act as you will see if you look at the report into the major power failure caused by a lightning strike on a Wind Farm in the North Sea.

[Bob Williams]

These are being built in the North Sea now, some for the Humber as stated here, but also later in the Wash. They say off the Yorkshire coast, but half the Doggerland ones are off Lincolnshire.

http://tinyurl.com/y33njw5g

Orsted are the Danish company building all this:

http://tinyurl.com/y4abglng

The turbines are now being built at the same time as the infrastructure to take the energy into the Grid, but that has not always been the case. It was a struggle because Lincolnshire County Council wanted no pylons, instead worked with previous governments to lay cables underground. That is why our roads and paths are a mess, but I would rather have that than any more ugly pylons marching across our beautiful county.

Richard, I have had two different, solar powered hanging bird wind chimes outside my front door over the last 7 years. The first one was a Christmas gift which began to grow dim, it lasted just two summers before the cells died. The second we bought to replace it was a much more expensive item, well designed and made. It is still there and still works, shining a weird and ghostly change of coloured lights through the front door panels. (Helps me find the toilet during my twice nightly visits 🙄😣😀) It is still giving light at dawn, whilst the previous one lasted about 3 hours of darkness. Our bungalow frontage faces almost due South, which means the solar panels make the most of any sunlight there may be. During the last few cold but clear, sunlit days, it has continued to shine and recharge consistently. Proving two points: to get the right quality costs, plus the solar panels and batteries have improved over time.

As you say, humans always find a way to solve problems. I just wish someone would solve the nuclear fusion problem, that would be a huge boon to the human race and the health of the planet. It might also spell the end of the oil industry and (hopefully) Putin and his oligarch pals.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Ed P]

Wheels-Of-Fire wrote:

Isn’t hydroelectric still the best form of stored energy ? A river is a plus but you only need a high lake and a low lake. Release water from the top lake to generate electricity when you need it and then pump it back up again when eco energy is plentiful.

Unfortunately we are running out of good places for hydro. Pumped storage is a good alternative and the Germans are using old coal mines for this, but nothing would have beaten a Severn or Wash barrage for size and capacity. Hell if the French can do it why can’t we!

[Tippon]

The last three replies in this thread (two by EdP and one by Bob) were pending approval. I’ve just approved them to see if they would then show up, and if they would appear in the correct order i.e. when they were written. They’ve appeared in the correct thread, but at the wrong time.

@bdthree These were showing as pending in the same way as Ed’s posts from the heart attack thread

[Ed P]

Thanks Tippon – you have solved the mystery of my disappearing posts, or at least identified where they went.

I posted other slightly differently worded posts that went through ok, and the conversations continued from there so please ignore the two posts above.

[Wheels-Of-Fire]

Oh I don’t know Ed, pumped hydro storage needed another mention 😁

In the days when we needed to burn fuel to pump water back up it made limited sense, but now we have periods when wind turbines are producing excess power it makes perfect sense to use that.

You really don’t NEED a river but you will need a way to initially fill your lakes and keep them topped up, rain water run off should do it. Your high lake and low lake don’t even need to be especially close as you can pipe water between them.

On top of the electricity storage benefits you will also be creating new rain water catchment reservoirs so the water companies may like to chip in with the cost.

[Richard]

The major issue space. Usually, his means valleys that can be dammed to hold the water.

At least batteries can be placed in a range of possible locations, possibly including shopping malls that no longer attract enough customers. Don’t laugh, they are starting to go begging and do have somewhat easy access and many of the necessary facilities laid on. Some are already ear marked to be redeployed as fulfilment centres for internet orders, others are sat rotting.

[Ed P]

From my reading the German use of Coal Mines results in relatively small, but still very useful pumped storage capacity. I’m not sure whether it would be practical for our abandoned mines.

The article calls it ‘huge’ storage, but I think that epithet only applies to it relative to batteries.

[Wheels-Of-Fire]

There is another benefit to stored hydro power because it uses spinning generators so it can be used to help regulate the frequency of the grid. You can also use DC motors to do the pumping so you can take power from solar and wind sources directly.

[Richard]

The previous advantage of spinning devices is said to have been their inertia and thus resistance to sudden changes. My understanding is that there is a  current generation of solid state devices as good at producing stable, frequency controlled outputs. However, their deployment into networks with a heterogeneous array of devices that lack such finesse, while mandated had not been completed during the previous big outage – the one worsened by the train sets with controllers that were out of spec.

I have considerable sympathy for the operators of the highly complex mix of demands and capabilities now being presented by today’s network topology. It is dynamic with a range of variables as huge inductive loads and presented and removed, there are changes in power-factors with the increasing use of e.g. LED devices with their capacitor droppers and so on. As far as I can see some demands may lie outside the supply agreements accepted by customers. At one point some generator sets were kept spinning as parasites providing their characteristics to help stabilise networks, that might still be the case.

[Author]

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