Fiat 500

[PlaneMan]

Took mum’s Fiat 500 for a service today. No issues with that but chuffing ‘ell it feels like driving a bus when sat on a cushion compared to my little Swift. At town speeds it’s OK but once you get above about 50 MPH it feels very wayward and bounces over broken road surfaces. There is no torque until about 4,000 RPM and it just sounds like you’re thrashing the life out of the 1.2 naturally aspirated engine.

For mum it’s perfect, high driving position, easy to drive and easy to park. The car hasn’t done 3,000 miles yet and mum has had it a year, pre-reg job with about 25 miles on the clock after I did the test drive. I put 40 odd miles on it this morning, that’s more than it usually does in a week.

I was glad to get back into my Swift. ?

 

[Bob Williams]

My Gdaughter wanted one of those to replace her ’55 Kia Picanto. After taking a new post at Barclays and earning a lot more, she decided upon a test drive of a Fiat 500 and rejected it outright for more or less the same reasons you give, Nolan.

She decided to keep the Picanto: it still runs beautifully, has put on some hard miles under her driving and is worth peanuts if she sells it. Then she wants a Hyundai like granddad’s.

Sensible girl!

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[PlaneMan]

Bob, mum’s car is an 18 reg, same engine size and nearly the same power output as my 2012 Swift I had before. What a difference in how they drive though. The Swift could hold speed through corners and it didn’t feel like you were thrashing it as it revved much quicker.

I found the 500 very awkward to drive, especially for the first few miles as it has a strange habit of still revving a bit once you dip the clutch to change gear.

Is your grand daughter after a well cared for (some paintwork issues due to idiots in car parks) 2017 Swift? I might have one for sale soon. ?

[Richard]

I’m not sure that low mileage is everything. My wife’s Kia is now 7 years old but has still to get to the 3,000 mile mark. I try to put 25~40 miles on it each Sunday morning just to keep it going and make sure the battery is alive. It is the same low mileage story with my ‘new’ car, it is now coming up to 3 years old and with less than 5,000 miles. The elderly hack on the other hand has done 102,100 or thereabout. The A/C is fine once more having just had an A/C service. The A/C person suggested a service every year, I guess it has been at least 5 since it was last recharged, oops. Surprisingly the engine still uses no oil between services. At one point I kept it going because our eldest daughter might have taken it on, but it is worth almost nothing now so it gets all the dirty jobs, the tip and most hospital visits.

[JayCeeDee]

Richard wrote:

I’m not sure that low mileage is everything.

 

I’d agree with that. I’ve just put the wife’s 52 Ka in for it’s annual service and MoT. Mileage is 32108, last years’ mileage was 31543. However, the one thing that I noticed was that before I could get it to the garage I had to charge the battery, the brakes squeaked and grumbled for the first 5 minutes from where it had been standing. There’s a CV gaiter that has perished and both sills at the rear need attention.

There’s a lot to be said for regular use, so long as maintenance is kept up.

[The Duke]

I agree, ex fleet cars (saloons) are always good buys, they may have high milage, but the majority is on the motorway. Pick them up for about half the price of a lower milage model, that probably put its lower miles on around town in short bursts.

[Bob Williams]

As an ex-grease monkey and workshop foreman, I used to see many older, highly polished but low mileage cars with corrosion issues. One former customer (long deceased) was an elderly lady who had been in the same ATS unit as (then) Princess Elizabeth during WWII. She bought a Vauxhall Chevette* brand new and we began MOT and servicing work on it after 3 years of ownership. IIRC, it had managed just 3,500+ miles in that 3 years and her mileage was increased at the same rate for several years. It was kept on grass in the open, which is the very worst way to keep a car: the grass breathes out moisture. I could not convince her to have a drive made, even though she owned a paid for large house and was quite wealthy. The result was that there was corrosion at the first MOT in load-bearing points and brake pipes, and more every year. I almost pleaded with her to buy another car and have a drive or at least a concrete standing, but she would not have it. When she died her nephew, her only living relative and fortunate beneficiary, offered us the car for £500. I chuckled and put it on the ramp to show him the previous repairs and the ongoing corrosion. “We don’t want it,” I told him “it’s not worth £50.” He had it scrapped. Even the engine was rough: I used to take it for a blast down a local dual carriageway, to try to blast away some of the krap. It was seriously coked-up, coming from a time of leisurely motoring, I doubt she ever exceeded 30 MPH!

And yet there were older, very high mileage cars that we maintained, which were regularly serviced and kept properly, which ran perfectly and did not suffer more than corrosion at an expected rate.

The one job I would never carry out, was an engine flush. I have detailed my reasons here before: basically it removes the ‘varnish’ from working parts that oil and heat have plated the parts with. When fresh oil and new filter is put in, the oil has to get up to the top of the engine when started. There is metal-to-metal wear before the oil gets there. It takes many miles before the varnish is replaced.

*The unofficial trade name for a Chevette in my time, was a ‘Shove-it’.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Richard]

Many years ago the local police had a 3 year old Vauxhall that had done 350,000 miles. When inspected at a strip down there was next to no sign of any wear. It was in use for as near as damn it 24 hours per day, its only down time was for servicing.

At least our low mileage cars are only taken out on moderately fast runs for 20~40 miles at a time otherwise they are kept in a concrete floored garage that is integral to the house and pretty much dry and humidity limited. The old car missed out on a couple of service due to pressure of ‘other issues’*, it still did not need any oil between services. It does most of the short trip work and that does include many short trips, but it also gets a few faster ‘exercise cases’.

I am not sure about engine cleaning, I am tempted to suggest that if the engine really needs a clean out, then something has already gone wrong.

All in all I agree, in essence it is use it or loose it for mechanical devices of most sorts.

*Yes not an action by design, regular oil changes are usually regarded as the holy grail for good engine life, I was surprised and concerned at the lapse. Interestingly gear boxes are often sealed for life – or sealed for death?

[Bob Williams]

A lot of older vehicle engine (and bodywork/floorpan/chassis) issues do not occur in today’s cars Richard. Modern engineering and assembly methods, controlled by advanced computers and intelligent ‘robots’, result in very fine tolerances. Moreover, the tolerances are repetitive: each and every sub-assembly and every final production of the same model,is built to the same accurate standards. Advances in oils and lubricants are science-driven: oil and filter changes do not need to be as frequent as in the past. Corrosion-proofing and metals technology have led to companies like Hyundai and Kia offering long warranties against corrosion.

That said, it still makes me slightly uneasy, as an old school grease monkey, when I learn that my iX20 only has a service every 12 months or 24,000 miles. Yes, you read that right: 24,000 miles. I used to change oil and filter every 6,000. Hey-Ho, times they are a-changin’, as Mr, Dylan sang.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Mark Turner]

JayCeeDee wrote:

Richard wrote:

I’m not sure that low mileage is everything.

I’d agree with that. I’ve just put the wife’s 52 Ka in for it’s annual service and MoT. Mileage is 32108, last years’ mileage was 31543. However, the one thing that I noticed was that before I could get it to the garage I had to charge the battery, the brakes squeaked and grumbled for the first 5 minutes from where it had been standing. There’s a CV gaiter that has perished and both sills at the rear need attention. There’s a lot to be said for regular use, so long as maintenance is kept up.

The mk1 KA is well known for sill rot I would check around the filler flap as well as that is another known weak spot but at its age if that sill attention has only just surfaced its done really well for a ka of its age.

[JayCeeDee]

Mark Turner wrote:

The mk1 KA is well known for sill rot I would check around the filler flap as well as that is another known weak spot but at its age if that sill attention has only just surfaced its done really well for a ka of its age.

We had a good bit done 2 years ago, this is just precautionary – it’s the usual, underneath the plastic fascia where the water collects!!

It’s been a really good car for the wife – she says if her car was a horse, it would be a shire horse, not fast, not pretty, just functional and fit for purpose – her ‘point and shoot’ car as she calls it.

[Richard]

Bob, I do not down grade, deny or dispute that manufacturing of modern cars has improved over the years. Cars in the 1950s covered themselves in enough oil that in many cases helped to stave off the rot. Though by the 1960s the rot problem was starting to take and increasing toll. I was taken with both the small Renault Dauphine ‘family car’ and the Renault Floride ‘sports model’, but then I saw them rust away. Likewise the Mini and others. I have to agree that rust proofing and painting are considerably better than in that era and, yes engines and gear boxes tend to retain their oils to an extent that would only ever have been dreamed about back then. However, design and maintenance mistakes are made, drains that fill box members – Mazda, or easily clogged areas that then fill the body or structural areas with feted water – Audi. The last Ford we had in the 1990s should frankly never been produced, it needed new automatic gear boxes more often then engine oil changes and the brakes needed rebuilding after 30,000 miles and then the electrical wiring failed…

JLR do not have a great name for quality and many of the expensive cars do have a record for both picky owners and long lists of things worth picking over. The electronic systems come in for some complaints as cars age beyond 10 years, though whether this is the electronics or the wiring, earth bonding or what can be a very hard and expensive issue to pin down.

However with all that said and done I agree that cars with the exception of the lemons are better built and do have the potential to last far better than most cars of 50 years ago. I suggest that they do still need some care and respect to achieve their full long life potential.

Before Steve, comments as he might otherwise feel he should. The improvement in car body work applies to all makers and my one time comments or Renault appear to have ben fixed a long while back.

[Richard]

Oops ‘been’ not ‘ben’ in the last line.

[The Duke]

All cars are decent today, mostly rust proof and both engine and gear box far more reliable, powerful and more economic, and safety wasn’t even an consideration back then

The only real issue is electronics, most cars today have the potential to live far longer than cars of old, but two things hold them back, little to non driver maintance can be done, even by 3rd party garages, and the worst bit, the election is have about a 10 year life span. So they have thd potential but in reality a 15 year old car will be a rarity in 25 years time.

[Bob Williams]

Agree with the electronics issues Steve: an experienced, qualified Auto-Electrician will be earning top money in the Trade, always been that way as far as I can remember. At my old workshop, we were fortunate to have the services of a really good one, who hated getting his hands oily on his own motors. We maintained all the oily bits on his cars and vans and he would react quickly to a call for help from us. Back in ’95 or thereabouts, even as a young guy in his late 20’s he had 5 employees and each had a small van. Last I heard, he had semi-retired but still doing a bit for friends. He trained sveral lads who turned out as good as he was. (Or were fired!)

Returning to the corrosion topic: when I first joined the trade, many customers would want an underbody oil spray, using old engine oil. At my first place of work, we kept one compressed air-line and a dedicated spray bottle for that. I don’t like to think what standing under a chassis and filling the air around me with carcinogenic old oil, was doing to me! Faint blue smoke as the car was driven away and the splashes were burning off the exhaust. What we did in our ignorance to ourselves and the environment in those days, does not bear thinking about.???

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Ed P]

Used engine oil was/is certainly a carcinogen but cutting oils were far worse. Anyone working on machining/stamping equipment unknowingly gambled with death. Luckily the guilty parties (mainly the additives) were identified and mostly eliminated by the 1980s. Life expectancy has also been greatly helped by protective clothing and good hygiene practices.

[Richard]

I will not argue whether the electronics need an expert, they do. Though the issues are not always down to the electronic modules, whatever the computer might say. Both the wiring and especially the earthing can be a real issue that only an expert with a magic, and yes often oil free set of hands can track down. The local garage had one from one of the poorer parts of Europe where spare parts were very expensive. He learned things very carefully and not by simply changing bits until the car limped out of the workshop.

I was impressed by the travelling A/C person who re-gassed the old car, fixed price and a good result.

Rust is only ever solved at source, with good material, preparation, primer and subsequent coats. I understand your concerns about old oil sprays, they possibly did less harm than the infamous ‘underseal’ to operator, though only to the car. Underseal only ensured that rust had a home, I did it on one car, months later the negative results were obvious. I never went in for oil spraying, I left it to the engine to do that!

Now everyone goes on about gloves for every job, not back in the 1960s.

[Richard]

Another late edit oops, ignore ‘ to operator I meant to just say that add-on underseal was crap, I mean CRAP.

[JayCeeDee]

Richard wrote:

The local garage had one from one of the poorer parts of Europe where spare parts were very expensive.

That perspective brings Malta to mind for me. I first went there in 1989 and we were ferried from the airport to the house we were staying in by a Ford Zephyr/Zodiac of mid 60’s vintage. I went on to see, during my stay, Triumph Heralds, Hillman Imps and Minxes, Rover 90’s 110’s 2000’s, Morris Minors, Ford Populars of both the saloon and upright variety, the list just carried on of a variety of cars ( mostly British ) from the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s. Also the local buses had to be seen to be believed.

This was brought about by the high price of importing spares to an island creating a ‘make it and fit it’ industry that manufactured everything from pistons to steering and suspension parts, which survived for a great number of years until Malta wanted to join Europe and all cars had to meet emission and safety standards, so an MoT test meant a lot of vehicles still on the road immediately became non-roadworthy.

There is a part of me that says the roads became safer, but a bigger part of me missed all those wonderful vehicles and the industry that died along with them.

[Bob Williams]

JCD we holidayed in Malta a good few years ago, again before they joined the EU. I had previously only visited as a 16 & 17 yo junior deckhand, touring the Med in two trips unloading and taking on cargoes. On holiday I was amazed to see the same old buses still used on all routes, and just as you say all the old mostly Brit motors travelling about. Those buses were loved by their owners, who decorated them with some amazing stuff.

http://tinyurl.com/yydq575g

In 2011 the buses were retired and stored in a “graveyard”.   http://tinyurl.com/y48h8p38

I have not been back there since, but apparently Malta bus transport has entered the modern age, with Aviva running modern buses and modern services. Probably better for all sorts of reasons, but personally I regret the passing of those buses, which we used to travel all over the island. The owner/drivers were all characters, I loved talking to them. The old motors were a particular problem for my missus, as a lot of my work was rebuilding, repairing and maintaining Classics. Every time we passed a garage or a tiny back street ‘workshop’ I had to stop and talk. The word got around: seemed like every Malteser ? knew me and my job, within a couple of days! One day we visited Valletta and I had no change left for the bus fare, just a 50 Lire note. I went to a fruit and drink stall and asked for a bottle of juice, gave the guy the 50 note. He looked at me, grinned, and said “Come back tomorrow and I give you change, OK?” – keeping the note. “No,” I said, “Give me the juice and the 50Lire, I’ll come back tomorrow with the right money. That would be OK.” He laughed and gave me the change. I told him he had a British sense of humour and he answered “Why not? We were British for a long time.”

A Maltese comedian at a show we went to, had the name Danny de Vito: his real name. He said he spoke 3 languages: Maltish (!) English – and Rubbish! I had a great time there twice as a kid and a great holiday later with my SWMBO. Smashing people.

 

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

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