Car crash

[Les.]

Don’t you think you are mostly being a bit uncharitable? I am not aware of a “bathtub curve” for accidents and age, but there is no doubt that YOUNG drivers have most accidents. This old man until very recently was driving “small coaches” dragged by multiple horses with great skill, probably a damn sight more difficult than a big range rover. Some older people are incompetent, some realise their skills are waning and give up, but I would be most surprised if HRH is not checked over health wise regularly.

I had an accident when I pulled out and was hit by a car. I looked R, looked L, R again and pulled out. I think the car was in front of a bus shelter, providing “camouflage”. I would be late 20’s early 30’ss then. Admitted liability and got on with things. None since then.

I ride my bike regularly (out this morning) and rarely slowly (though slower than 50 to 60 years ago) but I am appalled by the general abilities I see around me. Not just from 97 year olds, and I see no significance to his “status”. The police ARE investigating.

Les.

[PlaneMan]

Les, is that for me or Ed, or both?

Uncharitable, no. He’s already been spotted driving his new motor without a seatbelt on.

The new motor was delivered yesterday. Without his status that wouldn’t happen to anyone else unless you paid many times over the odds for it.Very doubtful then. The logistics are complex.

Of course the police are ‘investigating’. They aren’t going to say publicly that they aren’t doing 2/10ths of bugger all.

I really hope I’m wrong on this one but I wouldn’t be surprised if there is some false flag terror alert/attack quite soon to make this all go away.

[Ed P]

Les you are quite correct that younger drivers have a higher percentage of bad accidents as most elderly drivers know their limits and ease off on the pedel. However it is quite possible the DofE is an exception based on Giles Bandreth and other comments:

link

 

[PlaneMan]

Ed, I kind of agree with your statement ‘most elderly drivers know their limits and ease off on the pedal’ but I’ve seen so many near misses because of old folk. Common one round here is a national speed limit zone and people doing 30 in what sounds like 1st gear, engine screaming away. They get to the 20mph zone and do about 35 mph through it even when the kids are coming out of school. ?

I’m NOT saying that all old people are crap at driving but for the vast majority of people as you get older your reflexes slow.

I also am aware of a fair few people of pension age that still think it’s fine to have 6 pints and drive home. ‘I wouldn’t drive if I didn’t feel able to’ is a common quote. And I have reported  them. Different era. Won’t change, Prince Phillip could be the poster boy for that era.

[Dave Rice]

Who does he think he is? Theresa May? Wow, I just scored a spectacular own goal. Never mind, I survived. Carry on facing the wrong way and put your foot to the floor.

Perhaps he’s trying to keep Land Rover in business?

[Ed P]

Les, although he no doubt meets the legal health/eyesight requirements there is one extremely critical area that is never tested and that is reaction speed. Imo every driver should be required to have this simple test every five years.

The test involves a ruler, an object and a second person or some automated way of dropping the object at a random time, the reaction speed is the distance travelled by the object before being caught. Schools often carry out this test on the public in order to gather simple statistics and draw age/reaction speed charts. I watched the local kids do this and the age/speed results are generally horrifying. I guess because i play computer games I had a very fast reaction speed and screwed up their pretty chart.

[Les.]

Ed, I do agree about reaction times. A quick eye test and reaction time every few years would be a good thing.

So, you play loads of computer games and your reaction time does not fit the graph. Makes sense. I ride a motorcycle, and have done so for 61 years. Quite a few years ago, I went to the annual M/C show, and they had a reaction time test. You sat on a bike, watched the screen, accelerated away, and stopped when the big accident appeared in front of you. It was late afternoon, I was up early, had been on the bike for at least a couple of hours, trudged around the show all day, and was persuaded to have a go. I must have been off the graph with my response time, one of the fastest of the day. Maybe because I rode a bike 365 days of the year. Today I ride less, but still regularly, and I still enjoy speed, maybe that will keep my reaction times short. Maybe years of driving “mini coaches” with the unpredictability of 4 or 6 horse power kept the Duke’s reaction times good.

No seat belt, silly sod, it is against the law and wearing one does give a measure of protection in most acciden5t situations.

I wear a crash hat for the same reason, but do not assume it gives be absolution if something big happens, but then I was around when you learned what fireworks could do by playing about with them. Safety culture is one thing, but completely stifling all learning opportunities is crazy..

The DofE is one bright spark who has been around all my life, and I wish him many more years. I hope I can hang on as long as he does.

I spent an hour with my chain saw this afternoon. Much safer sitting on my a**e in the living room, but where is the fun in that?

Les.

[Bob Williams]

Les your admiration of the DofE is based upon the distance you see him from and the media coverage that for years has given a humorous aspect to his many gaffs and his repeated racial and sexual comments. ‘He’s a character’ is the main public view of him. I had several contacts with him as our Colonel-in-Chief in the Army and I have a different view of the over privileged person he really is. I could give several instances, but the list is long and I will just say that, whilst during WWII he served with great distinction in the Royal Navy, he has a very low opinion of the rank and file in Khaki and he demonstrated that in my presence more than once.

He really does believe that he is better than most people around him: even an aide-de-camp, a very young Lieutenant, was subjected to a withering blast from him, complete with obscene language, in my hearing. The Lt’s sin was to correct the DofE’s mistake in confusing medal ribbons worn by a WOII in his 40’s, a very popular guy and well liked in our unit. I believe that all the years he has lived as the Queen’s Consort, have given him an inferiority complex that he hides with a personality defect, by using his position to gain as many privileges as he can. Has everyone forgotten how he treated his own son and the Heir to the Throne? Charles is a very different man to his father: he treats everyone he meets with the same respect, whoever they are. His father saw the sincerity and gentleness of his son as weakness.

The facts about this unhappy event are still relevant: he will not be considered for prosecution or any form of disciplinary action, for two possible infractions of motoring law in two separate incidents, driving without due care and failing to wear a seat belt. I repeat my earlier words: were he an ordinary British citizen, he would have been subject to due process. In the event, I forecast with an expectation of accuracy, that he will not be subject to any such process.

Now I await my Treason trial.??

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[dwynnehugh]

Contrary to some popular belief expressed here, I can 1000% guarantee that this accident will receive very minute scrutiny for one very simple reason, there will be people who will say ‘one law for us and ….’ and most certainly the police / CPS and all those involved don’t want to end up with egg on their face.

Any outcome of their investigations will be submitted to the CPS and they of course will have to decide (1) Sufficient evidence to justify a prosecution  (2)  a reasonable chance of a successful outcome  (3) Is prosecution in them public interest.

 

The DofE may have mitigation that the sun was low and in his eyes – that I do not think is a defence after all it is up to the driver to ensure that it is safe for him/her to commence any manoeuvre before it is commenced. He appears to have failed to do so.

Let’s be honest if this wasn’t the DofE it would never have been of interest to anyone.  A possible outcome is NFA – but there are at least 2 other innocent victims with injuries – that has to be taken into account but is NOT a governing reason to prevent the CPS dealing with this in the way they see fit.

The best and most sensible option the DofE surrenders his D/L and continues to drive on their private estate but not on public roads. The other option is to commence proceedings and ask the court to disqualify him until he passes another driving test.  Best option to all is the first one.  The innocent parties will still have the right to compensation for injuries and HRH insurance co will foot the bill to repair the Kia.

The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

[Ed P]

dwynnehugh wrote:

but there are at least 2 other innocent victims with injuries – that has to be taken into account but is NOT a governing reason to prevent the CPS dealing with this in the way they see fit.

A local Portsmouth paper hired a ‘top’ lawyer to give his opinion. He generally echoed your comments but said that any public interest NOT to proceed with prosecution in the public interest would also take a very strong view of those hurt or affected by the accident.He indicated that they would have the last word in that respect.

If the DoE surrendered his licence and mitigated the impacts on those affected then they probably would not proceed as it would not be a good use of the public purse. My feeling is that the DoE has not helped himself in that respect by flouting the seat belt law so soon after the accident.

[dwynnehugh]

Ed P – I agree with what you say entirely – the problem with high profile persons be it the DofE, a world class sportsman or any well known personality – there will always be members of the public who will make the usual comments – as per some here suggesting that ‘because of who they are, they will get favours …’  That is not the case – in truth I actually think they get a harder line  by the police / CPS to try and show total impartiality and total disregard of kith and kin etc.

Many years aho as a young copper I booked a guy and he gave me his name and address – eg Fred Bloggs, The Duke of wherever,  Anytown. I asked if the Duke of Anywhere was his address – not he was one of our blood blooded brethren – he was a lovely guy.

Put the process book in, called to see the Chief Inspector – queried about the ‘Duke of Anywhere’ which was very strongly highlighted on the book – never heard any more about it.  In those days they could – these days with social media etc. this can be brought to the attention of the public almost within minutes.  Times have changed.

Whoever has this one on his / her desk has a very hot potato at the moment.

Unfortunately the DofE has not helped himself or endeared himself to the public by the events of two days later – but according to reports this type of driving behaviour is far from new.

The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

[Richard]

A one time student friend and later colleague of my daughter encountered the sun in the eyes problem after cresting a hill or rounding a bend and losing the shade of some nearby trees. They drove head on into another car and wrote their car off. I was very surprised to hear they had not been charged and were back on the road in a new car a week or so later. I m aware that the level of damage required to write off a car is surprisingly small these days.

Two you ladies had unfortunate encounters with life. One slide her car off the private drive of a local hospital into a ditch, not the first one to do that had her car pulled out and despite considerable damage front, radiator and side the thing was privately repaired and back on the road two weeks later. Someone else reversed into a parking lot pillar, turned the job over to the insurance and the car was written off. The problem could well be that it is more cost effective to declare a total loss for say a £600 car and well off the remains through a parts breaker where the undamaged doors, engine and gear box, seats, headlights, etc. can earn much more than that £600.

It is a complex world.

I guess that Land Rover were pleased to find a way to shift another vehicle given their declared sales woes.

[JayCeeDee]

One of the problems with cars being written off ( as I’m sure Bob will attest ) is down to the exceedingly high cost of labour.

The other is recent safety cell design. Physically, the parts can be replaced or hydraulically pulled back into shape, but with modern safety cell design, once the cell has been compromised , however slightly, the entire cell ( ie body shell ) has to be replaced. This is why, even for a side impact that could be fixed with new doors and a ‘B’ Pillar, if the roof is damaged, the insurance will write it off.

[Ed P]

My local garage said that the one thing that frequently causes a write-off are the air-bags going off. If the car is valued at less than £3K apparently it is pretty much automatic. I’m not sure why, but I guess the airbag causes too much collateral damage to the car’s interior.

[Bob Williams]

Richard wrote:

” The problem could well be that it is more cost effective to declare a total loss for say a £600 car and well off the remains through a parts breaker where the undamaged doors, engine and gear box, seats, headlights, etc. can earn much more than that £600. ”

I’m afraid it doesn’t always work that way today, Richard. Whether the vehicle is BER (Beyond Economic Repair) or simply too old and unfit for the road, the result is the same: it is classed as having reached End of Life and is then subject to EU, UK and international rules for recycling whatever can be recycled. This link will demonstrate the law and provide information as to what happens next:

http://tinyurl.com/yamkgq8r

Older vehicles (pre-2001 I think, not sure) were not built with each part carrying an ID ‘Number’ – actually a mix of characters, often quite long. They will have parts separated into piles by material, eg plastics, ferrous and non-ferrous metals, fabrics etc. Those vehicles with ID parts may be introduced into the Used Part market if they are without damage. If they are damaged, they will join the piles by material and all will be recycled by material, with sub-divisions. Think about the value of parts produced by ‘Pattern’ manufacturers, which must be made to fit, work and have a warranty in the life of the part – economically better value and can be trusted more than a “used” part. Decisions have to be made about the relevant value of parts fit for recycling: an older part from a mass-market manufacturer, obviously being less valuable than, say, an Aston Martin equivalent part . There is also the fact of pollution, covered by the link. My days as a workshop foreman, visiting a local scrapyard and choosing a used part with an oil-stained label, are long gone. There are no “Scrapyards” now – they are all Reclamation facilities and all have to follow rules enforced by EU and UK law.

JayCeeDee has called it correctly. Labour costs are a big factor and safety cell design might mean that the designed-in principle of “Crumple Zones” can transfer damage from one area of impact to another. Modern cars are made to a monocoque or semi-monocoque design, meaning that the whole body has to provide the strength. Think of an eggshell: every part of its surface is its strength. Crack one area and the whole shell is compromised. That is why convertible versions of any car model, have to have strengthened floors, some even have chassis legs introduced into the floor.

Ed‘s information regarding Airbags has truth. When an airbag goes into action, it is a very violent explosion and it happens in fractions of a second. Especially if all doors are closed at impact, this introduces a massive interior shock to the air in the car, which expands and can actually cause some distortion in the body. An insurance Valuer will measure areas such as door, boot, sun roof, vehicle height from the ground, length and bonnet gaps, to  check this. Any (perceived & judged) deformation will mean a write-off. Which, if you think about it, may be in the insurance companies’ interests after all…

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Richard]

I am sorry a typo slipped in to my message, I should have written £6000, not £600.

I agree that the labour costs are a frequent killer, but with repair estimates costing of the order of £4000 ~£4500 I have seen cars declared not worth repairing when the payout is still well clear of £6000. The insurance company also recover their marginal cost via adjustments to their future premiums.

While I appreciate your knowledge of the trade Bob, the feed back I have had from those and other cases suggests that not only can ‘off insurance repairs’ be far lower than their insurance quotes, but that the residual sale value of the vehicle as is is a insurance company consideration. BER are cat 3 or cat 4 are they not?

Yes Ed with the increasing number of air bags they can both do indirect damage, but also in some cars destroy seats and headlining, etc,in which they are mounted and other costly parts, such as dashboards. I understood undamaged items along with e.g. catalysts can attract a premium from a dismantler’s customers.

Today’s low spot, a very long and slow running ‘road improvement scheme’ has been in progress for three years, (it looks set to take the same again if not longer to ‘improve about 500 yards) with blanket 30 mph limits shown by signs nearly a metre in diameter, to protect the rarely-there workers. Understandably all affected roads are reduced to single carriageway. The idiot in the wrong roundabout lane having found his road position error, decided that speed limits should not apply to his stupid being so did a war dance on his lights and pathetic horn to show his displeasure at being limited to 30mph, oh how I wish I had a drive-cam to put his ignorant show up for all to see. No Duke or other establishment figure involved just a stupid white van fool.

[Mark Turner]

My misses was in an accident just before Christmas a women pulled out of a side street straight into the side of our car “claimed she didn’t see our car its a black zafira so not small” the impact wasn’t at any real speed misses doing about 15 mph women pulling out of junction not many mph the damage to look at was a mangled wing, the steering wheel about 15 degrees out of straight and a bit of negative camber on the wheel. The car was eventually collected by a Vauxhall main agent in Bolton a few days later the insurance phoned to say it was a right off Vauxhall had quoted £2600 to repair the car. We bought the car back from the insurance for £625 spent just over £500 on new parts and labour apart from the wing which we got from ebay in a perfect colour match which saved a few bob in painting. Our car is back on the road for £2000 less than Vauxhall quoted. Its classed as a cat d but we will keep the car until it dies as it does everything we need it to.

[dwynnehugh]

” … Our car is back on the road for £2000 less than Vauxhall quoted. Its classed as a cat d but we will keep the car until it dies as it does everything we need it to. …’

I doubt if the old Duke will need to do that!! ?

The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

[Bob Williams]

Richard I appreciate your information: however, the old Categories are now replaced by a new system:

http://tinyurl.com/yam4u75j

A, C, S and N are the new Cat’s, going down in serious damage from A as a write off, to N.

Mark, I suspect that your Zafira, if it was a write-off, would be cat B or S. Check your insurance information regarding the category they gave it. I would recommend that you have an engineer’s inspection and report on the car: there may be damage that you cannot determine for yourself. The RAC have a good scheme:

http://tinyurl.com/yd9wo4rk

Yes it costs, but worth it for peace of mind for your family in the car. I don’t know if this is still legal, but until I retired due to injury in 1997, as a qualified Motor Engineer and workshop foreman, I was able to carry out these inspections myself. I gave a report on the company’s Letterhead in triplicate: one for the vehicle owner, one for insurance and one for File. A lot of the inspections were of Custom Cars, many of which were challenging, but interesting work. We also worked a lot on Classics, some of which were US imports. Maybe you could find a local garage (with a qualified Motor Engineer, can’t stress that enough) that will carry out an inspection and report, less expensive. Either way, a good report can reduce your insurance premiums. A bad one means a rethink about the car, but whether you inform the insurance about a bad report is your decision.

In my working days, almost all own my cars were Salvage vehicles that I rebuilt from write-offs, but times have changed and anyone doing that now has many more hoops to jump through. Legislation has tightened up considerably and there are cars I have rebuilt which might not be economically viable, under today’s legislation. I drove nothing that I did not feel was safe and fit for the road then. I always had an RAC inspection and report on each vehicle that I rebuilt for my own use, but as I say times have changed.

Dwynne:

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Richard]

Another angle on insurance and cars https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-46947542 where a car was sold as a total loss against all agreements to the contrary. I guess the warning is not to trust an insurance company to get things right.

Perhaps it is just pure getting it wrong after all that causes so many issues?

[Author]

Posts