Brexit Promises

[Anonymous]

Jason wrote:

Looks like I’m still being quoted out-of-context…

 

It’s your burden in life mate.

“And the load
Doesn’t weigh me down at all
He ain’t heavy he’s my brother”

[Jason]

You know, it was only recently I discovered that that wasn’t written by a member of The Hollies.

[D-Dan]

Can we not now just move forward together? Whichever way you voted (and in the interest of transparency, I voted out, but would abide by the majority whichever way it went, hell, I was a conference delegate for one of the top 10 unions in Europe and had to move, and win a motion I personally opposed).

There were lies and unfounded speculations put forward as fact by both sides. No longer an issue. We are in the process. As a nation, we now need to unite.

There are hard enough times ahead. Little point making them harder by invoking a civil war.

Arch Linux, on a Ryzen 7 1800X, 32 GB, 5 (yes -5) HDs inc 5 SSDs, 4 RPi 3Bs + 1 RPi 4B - one as an NFS server with two more drives, PiHole (shut yours), Plex server, cloud server, and other random Pi stuff. Nice CoolerMaster case, 2 x NV GTX 1070 8GB, and a whopping 32" AOC 1440P monitor.

[Malcolm]

Oh no we’ve descended into Statistics:

Edp wrote

Not quite the same Richard, The number of homicides is roughly 20% higher, 2010s versus 1960s. (Government stats).

In 1960 the UK population was about 52.4 million, in 2015 the latest estimate is a population of 65.1, a population growth of nearly 25% generating only a 20% increase in the number of homicides, actually means it is getting safer in the UK. A 25% increase would indicate no change.

In fact a study shows violent crime to be reducing in the rich world:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22530073-200-why-violent-crime-is-plummeting-in-the-rich-world/

As for immigration the UK has always had an open door policy, even if it’s not an official party line. There used to talk of a ‘brain drain’ of bright Britons moving to the U.S. but never mention of the bright people moving to the UK?

Mindless thugs exist everywhere, but media organisations have to justify their existence by sensationalising news, and sadly the BBC seems to have joined the braying crowd years ago.

Take the almost completely un-noteworthy British temperate climate, in summer when it’s mildly warm the forecast temperature is given in Fahrenheit because the number is bigger and more sensational, in winter when it’s slightly colder the forecast temperature is given in Celsius as it’s sensationally lower.

If the media has taken to sensationalising the British weather anything else will be entirely blown out of proportion.

B-)

 

[Dave Rice]

Pull together? Why should I agree to a course of action I see as the biggest mistake this country is going to make? Especially when there doesn’t seem to be a plan or anyone who could actually implement one properly.

Farage and the Brexiteers had already said they wouldn’t accept a close result the other way around. The UK Gov referendum re-run petition was actually started by a Brexiteer before the referendum result. So let’s have none of this we won so you must do as we say crap.

And the lies told are an issue, a huge issue, and an ongoing one. Something needs to be done about the sweeping under the carpet of “it’s just a campaign” lies, “everyone knows we make impossible promises” (but not admitted that truthfully). But a politician would never vote for such measures and would find some way to weasel out.

As for using the ballot box to deal with the bad politicians,  Neil Hamilton is still at it and leader of his party in Wales. It seems the only way to stop them is to lock them up – Archer, Aitken, Huhne etc.

But we have the IRA (Bobby Sands) to thank for even that. John Stonehouse (remember him, the Reggie Perrin fake death) had to be made to resign. I can only hope that Trump’s “fake news” approach may prompt some action, but I doubt it.

[Anonymous]

Jason wrote:

You know, it was only recently I discovered that that wasn’t written by a member of The Hollies.

Bit of a cover band early on but came good.

For reasons of birth, I was obviously immersed in the ‘Merseybeat’ lot but I always had a soft spot for the Hollies, and The Animals also.

Did not think too much of the Beatles or the Stones, thought they would never amount to much.

Like that offer to buy into that company.

What was it called now?

Bramley or Granny Smith something like that.

Just got a great share deal on Eurostar.

You’ve got to keep your wits about you.        :wacko:

[Richard]

Ed P wrote:

Not quite the same Richard, The number of homicides is roughly 20% higher, 2010s versus 1960s. (Government stats). The ‘why’ is probably a bigger question as National Service was pretty much already over in the 1960s, so that hoary reason cannot be used. Booze is probably cheaper and stronger than it was back then, so that may be a factor. That said, most murders, both then and now are family affairs. Unfortunately Government stats do not allow you to delve too far into the details to be able to draw meaningful comparisons for young adult crime.

I am not sure what point you are making, though as others have said the population is also higher so the rate issue is moot. The area in question was poor in the fifties/sixties and no better now is what I was saying.  That there are additional stresses there now is indisputable, incomers do destabilise even otherwise stable areas. It is certainly not an area to walk through at night and absolutely not at closing time. It is more than wise to avoid the area until the drunks and druggies have left the scene. Sadly this is all too common across the country. Was there really a racial motive, the evidence makes that look a dodgy or at best unproven theorem. It appeared that more then one race was involved in the gang. Many areas of London are very territorial, remember the Post Codes gangs? I suspect that had they found, e.g. a Geordi or anyone else clearly not from their area a fight would have been the likely outcome. Was the murder in Wales I spoke about also racist? I thought not it was just a thug on a night out. The rate of murders is not the issue, though drugs and cheap drink might be increasingly important factors, in current incidents. The proportion of young men does tend to be a deciding factor, though in the Croydon case several females appeared to have been the focus of police attention. Increasing female violence is a recent talking point – this may or may not be relevant to the discussion.

[The VFM Addict]

Dave Rice wrote:

Pull together? Why should I agree to a course of action I see as the biggest mistake this country is going to make? Especially when there doesn’t seem to be a plan or anyone who could actually implement one properly. Farage and the Brexiteers had already said they wouldn’t accept a close result the other way around. The UK Gov referendum re-run petition was actually started by a Brexiteer before the referendum result. So let’s have none of this we won so you must do as we say crap. And the lies told are an issue, a huge issue, and an ongoing one. Something needs to be done about the sweeping under the carpet of “it’s just a campaign” lies, “everyone knows we make impossible promises” (but not admitted that truthfully). But a politician would never vote for such measures and would find some way to weasel out. As for using the ballot box to deal with the bad politicians, Neil Hamilton is still at it and leader of his party in Wales. It seems the only way to stop them is to lock them up – Archer, Aitken, Huhne etc. But we have the IRA (Bobby Sands) to thank for even that. John Stonehouse (remember him, the Reggie Perrin fake death) had to be made to resign. I can only hope that Trump’s “fake news” approach may prompt some action, but I doubt it.

 

I’m not sure I can agree that the situation is the same as if Remain had won; as regards not accepting the decision and pushing against it.    To me the dynamic and consequences seem very different.

I presume that while you voted to remain, if we do leave you would want us to get the best possible terms/trade deal.   Therein resides the rub.   As I see it the EU is likely to be far tougher on a country it sees as divided than it may be on a country it sees as resolute and united.   The EU’s instinct will surely be to gain the maximum advantage they can from the weaknesses and cracks they witness.

All I am saying, Dave, is I wonder if those still kicking against Leave aren’t in reality kicking themselves and may simply be ensuring that that which they perceive as a nightmare turns into their worst possible nightmare.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

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[Dave Rice]

What am I being accused of pushing against? I have accepted the result of the referendum but that doesn’t mean I agree with the manner. Yet all I hear is that I am kicking against Leave, I am not.

When it comes to a general election Tories have to accept the result of a Labour win but no-one expects them to become socialist for 5 years (and vice versa). Quite the opposite, they are given the important role of being the opposition and keeping the Government honest.

How can that principle not apply  in this case? I can accept the result that we are leaving but that doesn’t mean I’m going to just accept whatever the Government comes up with.

All I can see is blame shifting taking place before anything’s happened. If it goes badly it will be the Remainers fault because they weren’t behind something they didn’t agree with. Surely if the plan is that robust it can stand up to being questioned?

[Anonymous]

 

 

[Richard]

Dave Rice wrote:

If it goes badly it will be the Remainers fault because they weren’t behind something they didn’t agree with. Surely if the plan is that robust it can stand up to being questioned?

I am not sure if you have ever been involved in large contract negotiations or in international discussions. The first rule in both cases is for your team to present a united face to the opposition. Remember the contractor(s) want as much money as possible for the least amount of effort. The US international delegations were famous for the zeal with which they did not accept any dissent in their team. Many of the USA proposals were favoured for ‘commercial reasons’. If a word was said against the ideas, a plane awaited their delegate. It is fine for a loyal opposition to put forward ideas and demands for their national delegations listing what they want to achieve. It is less than helpful for snipping to be wholly destructive such as; “you lot cannot get anything and it will all go wrong anyway so give up and take whatever you can get”. I never experienced a situation in which the game plan was leaked by either side prior to starting negotiations. I do not just meant the stupid proposals such as I hear frequently at the moment, for example:

Give Spain Gibraltar or you will get nothing.

We support Scotland for the EU whatever you think.

Then the EU having the gall to complain when such taunts get the response they deserve.

In this case several have suggested as a tactic not asking for anything at the start, and let the other side face silence. They are braced to say no to everything and face an issue when there is nothing to reject.

The very last thing that the UK needs is to descend into a EU style bunch of feral cat like disputes.

I see Hungary have just struck a prime blow for intellectual freedom.

Oops sorry, that should be against academic freedom.

It is perhaps a pity that many TAW* branches put up Vote Leave Banners. The only thing the TAWs* agree on is spending other people’s money.

*TAWs the tax and waste party, used to be called Labour now, does anyone know? Anti Semite war zone perhaps?

[Dave Rice]

It seems you’ll be happy with leaving the EU in whatever manner the government decides then.

I’ll bet you won’t be silent if you see something you don’t like!

[The Duke]

Should we wrap this thread up now?  It’s been done to death a year ago. the only thing that came of it was bad feelings and a dip in traffic for a month of so.

[Richard]

The Duke wrote:

Should we wrap this thread up now? It’s been done to death a year ago. the only thing that came of it was bad feelings and a dip in traffic for a month of so.

Yes, I agree let it die and move onto better more useful things. Religion and politics are rarely good debating subjects and this appears to immerse itself in both

[Anonymous]

Richard wrote:

The Duke wrote:

Should we wrap this thread up now? It’s been done to death a year ago. the only thing that came of it was bad feelings and a dip in traffic for a month of so.

Yes, I agree let it die and move onto better more useful things. Religion and politics are rarely good debating subjects and this appears to immerse itself in both

 

I thought we had moved it a little toward old man’s pop music?    🙂

[Author]

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