Brexit now = CETA +/-?

[Dave Rice]

I think only the press are using the word lie. The argument is is that his stated reasons for proroguing Parliament – getting ready for a new Queens Speech – were clearly for far too long and the timing was somewhat convenient. Also is it right to deny Parliament the right to deny scrutiny of the executives actions at precisely the time they most need to?

The public are not fools, everyone knows this isn’t a happy accident whatever he may be able to get away with legally or morally. For some it’s just what they want because they think it will ease the passage to another result they desire, but be careful what you wish for. When it works against them they will rue the day because the genie will be out of the bottle big style and can be wheeled out at any time.

The executive cannot be allowed to shut down Parliament at will and for any length of time they chose, I don’t care who they are or whatever the reason. These are the actions of a dictatorship, pure and simple.

I don’t care if you voted Leave or Remain, nobody voted for this trashing of the running of the country. If this had been mentioned at the time nobody would have believed it could get to this. I think we all believed a consensus would be found and we would leave in an orderly fashion that wouldn’t cause too much damage. Had that happened we would be out by now and on to the long term relationship.

What have we got? More divided and that’s been a cynical tactic by a handful of do or die (mostly) right wing evangelists who saw the chance to hold everyone to ransom to get the extreme result that suited them. The language of these people has been to vilify and smear those who oppose them aided and abetted by the more excited parts of the popular press. That includes our judicial system.

Going back to a theme of a year or so ago it’s clear we need to overhaul the entire political system and may be it’s time to get a written constitution. As much as I support the Royals you have to question why they are involved in the process if it’s just a rubber stamping exercise – and I cannot see how it can be anything else. The Lords clearly needs sorting as it can be stuffed at will by whichever side needs to. I’ll confess I have little idea about the working of the judiciary but from what I’ve seen I don’t think they are a problem and I don’t believe anyone wants a politicised one like the have in the USA.

Interesting Times indeed.

[The Duke]

I was watching somthing last week or so, and they had the past so many pms, and how long they took ‘prorouging’ and he if far from the longest stint. So I don’t think the length is the issue. More the timing of it.

[The VFM Addict]

Dave Rice wrote:

I think only the press are using the word lie. The argument is is that his stated reasons for proroguing Parliament – getting ready for a new Queens Speech – were clearly for far too long and the timing was somewhat convenient. Also is it right to deny Parliament the right to deny scrutiny of the executives actions at precisely the time they most need to? The public are not fools, everyone knows this isn’t a happy accident whatever he may be able to get away with legally or morally. For some it’s just what they want because they think it will ease the passage to another result they desire, but be careful what you wish for. When it works against them they will rue the day because the genie will be out of the bottle big style and can be wheeled out at any time. The executive cannot be allowed to shut down Parliament at will and for any length of time they chose, I don’t care who they are or whatever the reason. These are the actions of a dictatorship, pure and simple. I don’t care if you voted Leave or Remain, nobody voted for this trashing of the running of the country. If this had been mentioned at the time nobody would have believed it could get to this. I think we all believed a consensus would be found and we would leave in an orderly fashion that wouldn’t cause too much damage. Had that happened we would be out by now and on to the long term relationship. What have we got? More divided and that’s been a cynical tactic by a handful of do or die (mostly) right wing evangelists who saw the chance to hold everyone to ransom to get the extreme result that suited them. The language of these people has been to vilify and smear those who oppose them aided and abetted by the more excited parts of the popular press. That includes our judicial system. Going back to a theme of a year or so ago it’s clear we need to overhaul the entire political system and may be it’s time to get a written constitution. As much as I support the Royals you have to question why they are involved in the process if it’s just a rubber stamping exercise – and I cannot see how it can be anything else. The Lords clearly needs sorting as it can be stuffed at will by whichever side needs to. I’ll confess I have little idea about the working of the judiciary but from what I’ve seen I don’t think they are a problem and I don’t believe anyone wants a politicised one like the have in the USA. Interesting Times indeed.

C’mon now, Dave, the procedural rule book was smashed asunder by Bercow even before proroguing took place.  So gloves off and all that.    And vilification of each side by the other dates back to the Ark in Brexit terms since before the Ref.    It has ever since been, has it not, Civil War minus physical weapons.   Certainly the old Left v Right political divide was the first victim suffering near fatal injury and I cannot see that returning to good health any time soon; and Jo So-So’s Lib-Dem positioning merely reaffirms the new battle lines.    Indeed given that she declared that even if there was EURef2 and Leave won again she would not accept the result; I’d say that such reaffirms that democracy is, even if not yet dead, is currently in a deep coma.

I said long, long ago that I didn’t see this war ever ending until we were out totally out (i.e. a full hard Brexit) because only then will all sides see by hard data which side is right.   Until then I simply cannot see that a civil war which is founded ultimately on theoretical projections and suppositions (by both sides) has any chance of ending.    Can you?    Isn’t it true that both sides will fight on savagely until having to concede being defeated by concrete data?    And to my mind it remains that that concrete data can only ever derive of experiencing a total break rather than both sides proffering what they ‘think’ it will be like.

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[Ed P]

Dave, the QC representing the Scottish MP’s branded the mendacious BoJo as ‘The father of lies’. BoJo has a track record starting in his school days through to his working days as a journalist of telling lies, so it is an easy slur to support.

The Scottish court stated their view was that the main reason for proroguing was not the constitutional need to discuss the Queens Speech but to stymie Parliament. It was afterwards that the Scottish MPs stated that he had therefore lied (by omission) in the stated constitutional reason given to the Queen for the proroguement.  (Bojo’s press quotes)

The incident is compounded by John Major saying that BoJo’s supposed account ‘could not possibly be true’. In the circumstances, this of course is just a polite way of saying ‘a pack of lies’.

[Dave Rice]

C’mon now, Dave, the procedural rule book was smashed asunder by Bercow even before proroguing took place. So gloves off and all that.

My complaint of the trashing of the running of the country applies to everything that’s happened, not just one side or the other. But at least Bercow is on the side of Parliament – or have you forgotten how you got the referendum in the first place? Yes, as you well know, Bercow was once the darling of the ERG when his “shenanigans” was in their favour. They even saved him from the last attempt to oust him. The same applies to the loose attitude to the Lords and the Judiciary depending on how they rule.

I said a while ago it’s not the process it’s the outcome that induces these faux rages.

I see you are toeing party lines on the Lib Dem thing. I await Leavers accepting a Remain Government decision to cancel the whole thing if it happens and getting behind the Govt of the day. Of course you won’t and I don’t expect you to.

So we have to wait until we’re out on a hard Brexit – thank you for not saying clean – to prove if the country is totally trashed or not. Seriously?  What will you do then? Say sorry you were right, I take it all back?

WTF is wrong with the compromise where you get out and we get not too far? After all that was seen as a reasonable outcome by even the most fevered Leaver back in the day when Leave was but a dream.

“If you feed a crocodile it will keep coming back for more”. I think that sums up the BP, ERG and DUP.

[The VFM Addict]

Dave Rice wrote:

So we have to wait until we’re out on a hard Brexit – thank you for not saying clean – to prove if the country is totally trashed or not. Seriously? What will you do then? Say sorry you were right, I take it all back? .

Such of course relies on the premise that Remainers are right and Leavers are not.   Of course the reverse is equally true.   And as you go to extremes in that paragraph I will also but in the reverse direction.  When we Remain and your offspring are conscripted into an EU army meeting their ends due to such will you wave the EU flag and shout hurrah?   The EU army that Remainers said during the Ref debate would never happen but now which is fully scheduled.

If anything you surely prove my point.   The debate remains two diametrically opposed positions that will continue to rip this country apart far more than you worst dream of what a hard Brexit would be like.    That is the biggest threat to the UK.    The two views can only be resolved once we ‘know rather than think’ which is correct.    We need the data, the concrete evidence, don’t we?    If you can think of any way to get that hard concrete evidence without a hard Brexit to see what its effect truly is, I am open to your suggestions.

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[Ed P]

I trust an EU army in preference to being forever a US colony and ‘unsinkable’ aircraft/missile carrier and forward supply base like Guam.

In any case there are more than two choices, even a soft Brexit is preferable to the guaranteed medium term misery of trying to survive with no trade deals at all. (It takes on average 5 years to cut a trade deal from scratch – and US State as usual contradict POTUS in saying that they could not quickly cut any deals.)

[The VFM Addict]

I seem to recall the Yanks gave us Lend-Lease when we needed it in WW2 but our Belgium ‘friends’ wouldn’t even sell us the Ammo we needed for the Falklands.

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[JayCeeDee]

This whole debate – outside of here and inside – is reminiscent of somebody arguing with Mystic Meg that her prediction for next weeks lottery numbers are wrong.

Each side will think they’re right and the other is wrong. Each could be right, each could be wrong.

Permutations, computations, speculations, guesses, project fear, et al, ad infinitum……………

We won’t bl**dy well know until the next week’s drawn!!!

[The VFM Addict]

+1

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[The Duke]

Conscription to the EU army would be great. For years on the riviera please.

Joking aside, it would at least be a guaranteed job for the youth. Far better than they have it atm. Also apeat of militery trainging is great character building and teach alot of people respect.

Hopefully if we go out, we’ll need a larger standing army, so National service may come back. I’m all for that. Though I’d raver serve it in Europe than the uk. All I recall from basic is cold and wet, always wet, 8 moths of wet. Hate being wet.

Also i really don’t care either way about brexit. We need it over one way or the other now, business needs to know what is happening so they can plan.

[Ed P]

The VFM Addict wrote:

I seem to recall the Yanks gave us Lend-Lease when we needed it in WW2

They GAVE us sweet FA, we had to pay in terms of servitude and money. In fact iirc we only finally paid it off in 2006.

[The VFM Addict]

Ed P wrote:

The VFM Addict wrote:

I seem to recall the Yanks gave us Lend-Lease when we needed it in WW2

They GAVE us sweet FA, we had to pay in terms of servitude and money. In fact iirc we only finally paid it off in 2006.

I thought the fact that I included the word ‘Lease’ made clear that I was not saying it was a gift.   But to put it beyond question that gave us a HUGE line of credit when we needed it.   Belgium on the other the hand would not even take cash, which we were ready to pay for the ammunition our troops needed for the Falklands.    Any way you want to look at it a buddy who won’t sell you the ammo you need is no buddy in my eyes.

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[The VFM Addict]

Ed, I think you ought to take a close look at this page re Lend-Lease  especially the Repayment Section.    The loan was Interest Free; not bad when we took 60 years to repay it.    Also much was sold to us at just 10% of its nominal value.     Realistically such adds up to as close to a ‘kin gift as it gets without being such.   I can’t imagine the EU ever being so generous even if we remained a member.

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[Ed P]

Do not get into the Falklands row without examining the role played by the US. As the Wall Street Journal makes clear our special relationship means sweet FA when the chips are down.

[Ed P]

Another bit of good news, as the prospect of a Hard Brexit recedes so too does the prospect of an oil price hike, as this article makes clear. (spoiler Iran, Russia and Venezuela step into the breach. ) link

[Les.]

A very simple question, now all the vitriol seems to have subsided, will this thread be formally closed tonight?

Maybe a new one with a bright new title should be opened tomorrow?

Les the stirrer.

[JayCeeDee]

Apparently there’s been an extension until December 2020, unless CoronaVirus intervenes!!

[Wheels-Of-Fire]

I thought my to good to miss thread would get some of that sort of reply. Apparently not 😁

[Wheels-Of-Fire]

Maybe because its in the UK politics section ?

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