Brexit now = CETA +/-?

[The VFM Addict]

Your analogy with the Civil Service makes no sense. The Civil Service cannot take us to war, cannot pass laws on knife crime, on benefits on taxes, etc.    Only our politicians can and we can vote the Government out.   But this is not so in the EU.  We the UK to a man may be ferociously against any EU president being appointed (indeed we were re Junker) but we cannot stop such.  Note the ‘to a man’ because only then does the loss of sovereignty become truly clear.  Not even the entire population of the UK in unanimity can protect the UK’s best interests while in the EU.

Think also of the numerous demonstrations at Parliament over the years.. How many could have afforded to travel to Brussels to demonstrate there about any matter.  The more distant is removed the seat of power the less there is democracy.

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[Dave Rice]

That analogy only works for you who live in London. Until BMI went through the hoop I could fly to Brussels cheaper than the train to London. What about people who live in the North? How much do you think it costs them to get to Westminster and probably an overnight stay? Do you have any idea just how expensive train travel is in this country if you want to travel at a decent hour?

Another “fact” that seems to make sense in the pub but doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny.

Has any demonstration since the poll tax actually stopped anything? The anti Iraq War and anti Brexit made no difference to anything at all. Neither do the online petitions signed by millions of people. Farage’s flotilla didn’t seem to achieve much, apart from some comedic value.

[dwynnehugh]

A neighbour of mine has just found out that BR pay staff who need to go to certain destinations to fly there  than go by train!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I suppose in a way they are being careful with cash – but ……..!!

The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

[dwynnehugh]

Less than a year ago my youngest daughter gave me 4 tickets for the Jacobite Express – on the West Highland Line starting from Fort William – roughly about 400 miles from my H/A.

Checked with BR for train fares – 9+months ago now  –  max number of months in advance – £1400 for the four of us return from Bangor, North Wales.

£800 from Birmingham – I can get the 4 of us to B’ham for £50 return in diesel. In fact B’ham is further south than Bangor – why £1400 or even £800???

The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

[Ed P]

The VFM Addict wrote:

The more distant is removed the seat of power the less there is democracy.

OK so you accept that you are promulgating a falsehood when you wrongly state that the EU Commission cannot be removed.

If you want to bang on about democracy then examine why it is a completely busted flush in the UK.

‘First pass the post’ results in my views never being represented. My views are worthless in my constituency where any braying idiot with a public school accent is certain to be elected. Even were I to have my views represented they would soon get overturned if the Newspaper/Media clique ganged up against it. Much as I dislike Trump, he was right to point out the malign influence of the media and their ability to overturn the will of the people in the style of “It was the Sun wot did it!”.

[The VFM Addict]

Ed P wrote:

The VFM Addict wrote:

The more distant is removed the seat of power the less there is democracy.

OK so you accept that you are promulgating a falsehood when you wrongly state that the EU Commission cannot be removed. If you want to bang on about democracy then examine why it is a completely busted flush in the UK. ‘First pass the post’ results in my views never being represented. My views are worthless in my constituency where any braying idiot with a public school accent is certain to be elected. Even were I to have my views represented they would soon get overturned if the Newspaper/Media clique ganged up against it. Much as I dislike Trump, he was right to point out the malign influence of the media and their ability to overturn the will of the people in the style of “It was the Sun wot did it!”.

WTF ……   Where do you get that from?    I was promulgating an absolute truth.   I was explicit that “we” could not remove the commission.   Not if every man, woman, child and goat in the UK wanted them out.    Cameron was totally against Junker being appointed but what happened?

I reject your arguments about there being no greater democracy in the UK than the EU.  That is surely untrue.    Apply the same test to both the UK and EU.   Patently if every man, woman, child and goat in the UK wanted our government out they would be out under any UK system even FPTP.    But as I said if that same overwhelming UK unanimity was against the EU commission it could/would not.    The difference is clear and stark.

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[Ed P]

Where did I say we were more democratic than the EU – you put words in my mouth. I in fact stated that we do NOT have true democracy in this country.

When we joined the EU we joined a club, as club members we participated in the constitution and in a political manner our elected representatives were supposedly there to represent our interests and behave politically by influencing the MEPS from the other member states. Instead people like Farage just acted in a thoroughly objectionable manner and generated zero good will and got zero cooperation.

I can on my own no more kick out our Government than the UK can on its own kick out the Commission. All I can do is to try and influence my MP. Politics is the art of the possible, not the impractical.

[The VFM Addict]

Ed P wrote:

Where did I say we were more democratic than the EU – you put words in my mouth. I in fact stated that we do NOT have true democracy in this country. When we joined the EU we joined a club, as club members we participated in the constitution and in a political manner our elected representatives were supposedly there to represent our interests and behave politically by influencing the MEPS from the other member states. Instead people like Farage just acted in a thoroughly objectionable manner and generated zero good will and got zero cooperation. I can on my own no more kick out our Government than the UK can on its own kick out the Commission. All I can do is to try and influence my MP. Politics is the art of the possible, not the impractical.

WTF…… Are you even reading posts before you reply?    Where did I even suggest you were saying we had more democracy in the UK.   Point it out if I did.     You were saying there was no difference and  I was the one saying that at least in the UK we can get the heads of government out if the UK electorate want to which we cannot in the EU.

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[Ed P]

Your Word, and just one unqualified sentence:

“I reject your arguments about there being no greater democracy in the UK than the EU.  ”

In any case we do not have a democracy and in recent years not even a democratically elected PM. What we have is an elected or appointed dictatorship that can and does ignore the will of the people and parliament. Even when the PM is elected there are frequent occasions when that is only a minority of voters when all votes are counted.

[Dave Rice]

What I generally find is that it isn’t the process that’s being objected to it’s the result. If the head of whatever is of the same thinking the objections as to how they got there disappear, as do any protestations about being able to remove them.

Once in power a major policy goal is to change the rules so that you increase your chances of staying there. All in the name of more democracy of course.

[The VFM Addict]

There are always two sides to a coin.   I have mixed feelings about the recent constituency boundary changes.   It certainly makes sense to make each constituency of the same size re electorate numbers.   Such is not controlled by government but by the electoral commission.  But the recent changes do provide advantage to the Tories.    Surely the constituency borders could have been manipulated such as to equalize sizes but have neutral bias.

If there is a consensus on this forum I think it is that we all agree that PR is what is really needed.  The sooner the better.

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[Ed P]

Labour went to sleep when the guidelines for the Boundary Commission were set in 2013. Labour have no-one to blame but themselves as there were public consultations iirc.

[Dave Rice]

No argument over PR.

[The VFM Addict]

Well the money markets seem to like the Boris win.   Pound climbing against the euro and the USD.

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[Dave Rice]

After going down! It’s back where it was when I went on holiday.

[JayCeeDee]

Well the money markets seem to like the Boris win.   Pound climbing against the euro and the USD.

 

After going down! It’s back where it was when I went on holiday.

Reminds me of the Dixons sales of yesteryear ( and recently still ) where they put the price up on the qt, then slashed it in a sale a few months later!!!

[Ed P]

Ditto the holiday Dave, but mine was in the Crab, Mussels and Hake land of West Cornwall. Cider was good too, but walking 20k/day left me aching all over and very thirsty so little weight was lost!

[Dave Rice]

This article (written yesterday) sums up the position with Sterling. It depends very much in Brexit and if Boris gets gobby about No Deal, down it goes. I’m off to Berlin in 4 weeks time so hopefully they’ll be on summer holidays and it can at least stay where it is.

Apart from a day trip to St. Ives, I’ve not been west of Truro for a long time. A mate / colleague lived on Roseland peninsula and I used to visit when working in Truro. Beautiful part of the country. I’m glad we’re eating more Hake now, I prefer it to Cod but only used to see it in Spain.

[JayCeeDee]

Dave Rice wrote:

…..so hopefully they’ll be on summer holidays and it can at least stay where it is.

Never mind discussing ‘Prorogueing’ Parliament, with the stumbling block being getting anything through Parliament, I’d have cancelled the Summer break and told the b*stards they weren’t going on holiday till something got through!! That might have focused a few minds!! A few overnight emergency sessions, with their families ready to go off to the sun without them, might have made them more ready to compromise and start fighting for the country instead of in-fighting themselves and each other.

[The Duke]

It’s a discrace they have been having any breaks given the task at hand. They should all be in giving this 100 percent. Far to much to do atm.

[Author]

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