Forumite Members › General Topics › Politics › Europe › Brexit now = CETA +/-?
- This topic has 1,833 replies, 23 voices, and was last updated 5 years, 7 months ago by
Dave Rice.
-
AuthorPosts
-
June 12, 2019 at 3:38 pm #34077
There is now little question that BoJo will become leader. Likewise the polls suggest that as such he will drag back those who have voted TBP if he guarantees out even if its a No Deal Brexit. The polling suggests a landslide Tory victory in those circumstances.
I agree with Patrick O’Flynn’s (SDP MEP) comments in John Rentoul’s thread, “I can see Johnson combining a honeymoon as PM with a “respect democracy” ticket at a GE in the autumn and winning easily.”
_______________________________________________________________________________________
During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
June 12, 2019 at 3:48 pm #34079Bojo now realises that heading for a hard Brexit will bring the Government down as the DUP will not support anything that results in a hard border even if it is one imposed by the EU.
June 12, 2019 at 3:57 pm #34080No, Ed. He’s realised that he can win a landslide Tory Victory in the Autumn.
Will he become Tory Leader? I think it now close to certain because Geoffrey Cox just joined his supporters. That’s ten or eleven more Tory MPs today falling in line behind him after the ComRes poll. Unstoppable momentum? Probably. Plus that poll will scare the heck out of Labour MPs in strong Leave seats. Dare they now be seen to support the Shackling Legislation? That really would be Turkey’s voting for Christmas. Because the Shackle would leave BoJo no option but to take the GE Shot. Although I think a snap GE is already BoJo’s plan now irrespective of whether there is Shackling Legislation or not. The Tories recognise that TBP must be disarmed and that BoJo going for 31 October or bust is the only way to do that. How funny that Labour may be in a position where they will want to stop a GE happening because it would be certain to result in their slaughter. Crazy times.
_______________________________________________________________________________________
During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
June 13, 2019 at 8:44 am #34094I think that the latest word to come out of Parliament is quite appropriate – prorogue – that’s just what they are, a bunch of professional rogues!!
If anything, it goes a bit soft on them, but then “Liars, cheats and con-artists” just doesn’t sound so good on the job description front, even though it’s more accurate!!
June 13, 2019 at 9:14 am #34096I think that the latest word to come out of Parliament is quite appropriate – prorogue – that’s just what they are, a bunch of professional rogues!! If anything, it goes a bit soft on them, but then “Liars, cheats and con-artists” just doesn’t sound so good on the job description front, even though it’s more accurate!!
What do you mean it doesn’t sound as good on the job description front? The evidence is quite the reverse. As soon as they are out of office they’ll either get comfy seats in the other chamber or nice fat non-Exec directorships here there and everywhere. Sadly though we will have left the EU so unlike other politicians kicked out of their senior domestic positions by their electorates (such as Junker, Tusk, etc.) there will be no juicy Brussels job awaiting them.
Oh God a thought that hadn’t crossed my mind before just surfaced. Will the next Tory Leader give Theresa May a peerage……………………….arrrrgggghhhhhhh ?
_______________________________________________________________________________________
During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
June 13, 2019 at 9:22 am #34099I think that the latest word to come out of Parliament is quite appropriate – prorogue – that’s just what they are, a bunch of professional rogues!! If anything, it goes a bit soft on them, but then “Liars, cheats and con-artists” just doesn’t sound so good on the job description front, even though it’s more accurate!!
What do you mean it doesn’t sound as good on the job description front? The evidence is quite the reverse. As soon as they are out of office they’ll either get comfy seats in the other chamber or nice fat non-Exec directorships here there and everywhere. Sadly though we will have left the EU so unlike other politicians kicked out of their senior domestic positions by their electorates (such as Junker, Tusk, etc.) there will be no juicy Brussels job awaiting them.
Most are already on some sort of UK gravy train anyway. Just look up MPs declared interests.
For example BoJo gets around £25,000 for each speaking assignment.
June 13, 2019 at 9:48 am #34100What do you mean it doesn’t sound as good on the job description front?
It meant that the ‘tarted up’ description of Professional Rogues’ was less descriptive or accurate than “Liars, cheats and con-artists” – what did you think I meant??
Maybe I should have put it into the ‘Joke’ section, in case you mis-interpreted it as political comment!!
June 13, 2019 at 1:56 pm #34108My response was tongue in cheek, JCD, so perhaps I should have put that in the joke section as well. Although the bit about Junker and Tusk wasn’t.
Moving on I have very mixed feelings at the moment. On the one hand I’m happy to see BoJo now almost certain to be the new Tory leader and hence be sure we will be out of the EU by 31 October. On the other he will almost certainly achieve that by calling a rapid GE and anyone wanting out of the EU will rally to his flag leaving the Brexit Party disarmed. That I am sad about because the mix of people in that party was somewhat different from the average career politician mix and it would have been good to see a HoC composed of less of such. So, as I say I have mixed feelings.
_______________________________________________________________________________________
During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
June 13, 2019 at 2:42 pm #34110My response was tongue in cheek, JCD, so perhaps I should have put that in the joke section as well.
Tongue in cheek or not when you see the below as your opening statement :-
What do you mean it doesn’t sound as good on the job description front?
and you follow it with your statement of feelings :-
The evidence is quite the reverse.
it’s difficult to see which way to take it. Had that been from a less verbose person I could have seen the possibility to take it as tongue in cheek, but your posts, your words and the arguments you place behind them are not off the cuff.
June 13, 2019 at 9:43 pm #34119I see your point, JCD, but although I often have to clarify my comments later they are always off the cuff. That probably comes from a couple of decades of on-the-fly debating with senior medical academics five days a week; which was often in a lift, in a corridor or anywhere just a couple of minutes were available. Sometimes I think and author at such a pace I have trouble keeping up with myself….. LOL That’s why you’ll often see a lot of tidying up edits below my posts. It just all comes out instantly and I tidy it up afterwards if needs be.
_______________________________________________________________________________________
During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
June 14, 2019 at 12:13 am #34120Your comments may well be off the cuff, but they come from both a perspective and an origin that is hard wired into your DNA. Hence your love of debate. Dare I say that that is the cause for people’s strong ( adverse ) reactions to your posts that then go on to upset you.
You grab a statistic or a concept or a poll and go on to analyse it in a way that seems to be ramming it down our throats and you justify it by the fact that you had thought it through.
Were it to be a premise, rather than a lecture it might have been better received.
That’s not to say that the end premise/conclusion is ( of necessity ) wrong, it just could have had a better journey.NB Intended as constructive comment, not criticism or trying to start an argument. ?
June 14, 2019 at 9:58 am #34133Tend not to disagree. You are spot on about it being in my DNA although I’m not sure if it was hard wired from birth or derives of the ‘gene therapy’ of professional experience and training. I’ve delivered training sessions for groups of up to a hundred and delivered presentations to audiences of up to 1,000 and have authored or part authored more training manuals than I care to remember. The latter possibly being the major culprit for the characteristics you highlight when I am working in the written word. But as I say its all reflex. It doesn’t happen in verbal communication face to face or even in front of medium sized audiences. Because the feedback one gets (verbal or body language) in such circumstances allows one to recognise points that are instantly accepted or those others that need expansion or validation. In the written word being devoid of that instant focus aiding feedback I am inclined to cover all points in depth, so to speak.
I never arrive at any position without giving it an awful lot of thought. Indeed, I have often been chased for decisions long before I have reached one. But once I arrive at one I find it impossible not to argue and fully support it to the best of my ability.
All in all I take no offence at what you said because it is true and well reasoned.
One part of your post had me wondering about whether we all have our own somewhat different definitions of what a ‘Forum’ is? You wrote: “Hence your love of debate. Dare I say that that is the cause for people’s strong ( adverse ) reactions to your posts that then go on to upset you.” Those words almost suggest, do they not, that debate is considered out of place. I never get upset when folks ‘play the ball’. Indeed professionally I was always inclined to welcome and provoke invite challenge of ‘the arguments’. My definition of a ‘Forum’ is; A venue specifically for debating? So if folks want to take me on and debate a position that I hold then I have no problem with such. Its only when folks don’t play the ball but descend into personal attacks that I am upset and frankly upset as much for them as for myself. But your words make me wonder if others’ definitions of what a Forum is are some what different. Ed, tends always to ‘play the ball’ and join in debate. Others however are more inclined to rapidly turn things personal. It occurs to me that possibly just possibly that might be because their view of what a Forum is is different. Hence they find or believe my reflex position which inclines to earnest debate to be unjustified or out of place. They therefore attack me ‘for debating’ rather than attack the arguments tendered in debate, if you see what I mean.
_______________________________________________________________________________________
During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
June 14, 2019 at 11:16 am #34136??
I never arrive at any position without giving it an awful lot of thought. Indeed, I have often been chased for decisions long before I have reached one. But once I arrive at one I find it impossible not to argue and fully support it to the best of my ability.
Yes, that’s very noticeable.?
My definition of a ‘Forum’ is; A venue specifically for debating?
The problem only arises because there are various types of that forum – face to face and the written word. The former has the added benefit of interpretation via body language, tone, even facial expression. The latter is totally devoid of those and even a missing/inaccurate punctuation mark can lead to mis-interpreting.
But your words make me wonder if others’ definitions of what a Forum is are some what different. Ed, tends always to ‘play the ball’ and join in debate. Others however are more inclined to rapidly turn things personal. It occurs to me that possibly just possibly that might be because their view of what a Forum is is different. Hence they find or believe my reflex position which inclines to earnest debate to be unjustified or out of place. They therefore attack me ‘for debating’ rather than attack the arguments tendered in debate, if you see what I mean.
Play nice – everything is calming down here, even if the political situation is hotting up!! Consider the above remarks re interpretation!! The same words can be considered placatory or argumentative/provocative.
When I switched on today and was confronted with the new RED theme, I thought my favourite Forum was bleeding to death!!!
June 14, 2019 at 3:02 pm #34139“The same words can be considered placatory or argumentative/provocative.” or diagnostic seeking to identify as to why things descend into personal attacks? In my experience when such occur in life they are rarely about that which they appear to be about. Indeed your post to which I replied suggested such when you said: “That’s not to say that the end premise/conclusion is ( of necessity ) wrong, it just could have had a better journey.”
All I way trying to say in my most recent post is that perhaps we all have different personal definitions of the meaning of the word ‘Forum’ and perhaps even of the word ‘debate’. As I said previously attack any point I make as hard as one likes and I will never take offence. Make a valid observation about my ‘style’ of debate also and I won’t take offence either. Hence I have felt no offence at anything you have said, JCD, truly. Its only when folks, no names, no pack drill, step outside of such that I take offence and will make no apologies for such. As is often said in court one may pursue a legitimate argument vigorously but such does not encompass or permit the use of intemperate language. Vigorous argument in my book remains ‘playing nice’ until intemperate language creeps in. Once it does then that is not playing nice. If your opinion differs that we must amicably agree to disagree.
_______________________________________________________________________________________
During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
June 14, 2019 at 7:35 pm #34145I don’t mind a good debate, and I never carry it over to another thread. I can disagree with someone vermently on one thread, but in anther be helping them with an issue and even sending stuff in the post.
I don’t do grudges, I cda getting annoyed. A quality of mine that drive the wife mad. She can go a week stewing on a topic, I can’t go 5 mins.
Once the conviction/argument is over, for me it’s finished. I move on.
June 15, 2019 at 1:22 pm #34173I’m with you 100% there, Duke. I’ve had many a heated debate with folks and been fine and great mates instantly afterwards and at times even simultaneously regarding other matters. My other half adopts the same position as yours and can’t relate to how that is possible. Perhaps that’s why fellas have problems at times understanding women. A lot of the time the fairer sex still seem angered by that which we have long since forgotten. I got told off by mine only a couple of weeks ago for having bumped into and had a long chat with to a past neighbour whom the other half had had a couple of disputes with a decade ago. It was a case of “How can you speak with her after all that happened” and truly “all that happened” wasn’t even that bad at the time.
_______________________________________________________________________________________
During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
June 19, 2019 at 8:10 am #34232I couldn’t help but laugh last night when I asked a friend who he felt won the Tory Leader Candidates Debate? He said, making use of the strange choice of seating chosen by the BBC, “As far as I’m concerned they’re all came across as incompetent barstools”.
_______________________________________________________________________________________
During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
June 19, 2019 at 9:43 am #34233The reaction from the Continent was shocked laughter that this bunch of dishonest incompetents were the best that the Conservative party had to offer. Yes – incompetent barstools!
I was also horrified that the pre-revolutionary Tory squirearchy obviously still believe in the mythical money tree which enables tax cuts for the rich (i.e. them) without any impact on the rest of the population! No mention of ‘if and when we can afford it’. Tax cuts first and grind the peasants down to pay. An obvious General Election vote-winner! (sarcasm)
June 19, 2019 at 11:01 am #34235Tax cuts first and grind the peasants down to pay. An obvious General Election vote-winner! (sarcasm)
The only problem I have with the above statement is that the General Population, bless ’em, only ever hear, and fall for, the former tax cuts, and seem blissfully unaware of the reality of the latter!!!
On last nights performance, the dream ticket ( yeah, really?? ) or maybe the least damaging, would be a Hunt/Stewart partnership. I think that Rory Stewart’s performance was more down to the dire format of the programme.
Where was Andrew Neill grilling them in a Question Time format??!!
June 19, 2019 at 1:31 pm #34238I have just had 2 weeks holiday in Egypt and very nice to appart from the Egyptian Men folk who are complete tools but are not as bad as British polititians.
Well Duno, perhaps worse. 🙂
-
AuthorPosts
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.