Forumite Members › General Topics › Politics › Europe › Brexit now = CETA +/-?
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Dave Rice.
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May 4, 2019 at 4:31 pm #33130
Frankly I do not believe that most knew why they were voting leave other than Bojo’s lies, and a racist anti-immigration Farage poster. 85% of these voters would not even know what a Customs Union entails.
May 4, 2019 at 5:18 pm #33133Nah, but the vast majority of Remainers thought no further than their next holiday on the continent. These people really do think we are going to pick our island up and move it !
Hang the sense of it where’s the sangria.
May 4, 2019 at 6:22 pm #33135Ah, I get it, Dave, First past the post will, as always, do for the Brexit Party in a GE just like it did for the idea of Brexit in the referendum. Well that was FPTP wasn’t it? Errrrrmmm…… You can’t see it can you, Dave, the next GE will not be like 2015. The dynamics are totally different. Brexit voters will in the main tick the ‘Brexit Party’ box next GE. Remainers will be spread across Labour, LibDems, Greens and in Scotland SNP. We are no longer talking UKIP with about 10-11% of the vote thinly spread across the country as we were in 2015. We’re talking say 30% of the electorate concentrated to vote for one party. If anything FPTP will work for the Brexit Party not against it due to the contra vote being spread across several parties.
BTW yes there will be skeletons. There always are in all parties. Just look at Antisemitism or perjuring speeding MPs. And I seem to recall Remainers slagging off Tory MPs for having dodgy financial dealings not to mention the occasional moat. Apart from the Antisemitism (possibly and if so still only marginally) I doubt any skeletons will significantly impact any party.
I’ve told you that you must look at Farage’s rhetoric it is now about changing UK politics as much as about Brexit. Take a look at the latest flyer. Its here.
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May 5, 2019 at 9:57 am #33145Imo the most probable outcome of these elections will be to frighten a lot of Conservative and Labour MPs. This could bring urgency to them finding a Brexit compromise which both avoids an EU referendum and emasculates the whole rationale of the so-called Brexit parties.
Ed, given your views expressed above I thought you might find the following illuminating:
Conservative MP Conor Burns is an MP who said previously that he would resign rather than support a No-Deal Brexit. However, his experiences ‘on the knocker’ in the last couple of weeks has led him to agree with Farage that a Tory/Lab stitch up would not work. He has said, “I’m afraid the description by Nigel Farage of a Lab/Con Brexit deal as ‘a coalition against the people’ will resonate. Because it is fundamentally true. Anyone who thinks it is the answer hasn’t been knocking on many doors in recent weeks.”
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May 5, 2019 at 10:13 am #33146In other news, on Sky’s Ridge on Sunday, Farage has challenged Corbyn to a Brexit debate before the EU elections. The latest polling for the EU elections has the Brexit Party an 30% and Labour at 21% with the Tories and LibDems way behind at 13% and 10% respectively.
The figures also suggest that Chukka et al ought to chuck it in though I truly hope they don’t. I want them around come the next GE because such can only assist the Brexit Party where elections are fought on a FPTP battleground. So come on Chukka, Allen and Soubry, etc, hang in there because us Brexiteers truly want you around. ???
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May 5, 2019 at 10:29 am #33149Most people treat the EU elections as a necessary farce. I doubt if many other than ardent Brexiteers will bother to turn out
How on earth do the Brexiteers avoid the practical problems of striking a deal with the 27, if they thoroughly pee them off before hand? Equally why would anyone give a better trade deal to the UK rather than the far larger EU?
Forget Services – Banks and other Financial Services have already cut their own deal, which essentially preserves the status quo with the EU.
May 5, 2019 at 11:11 am #33150Most people treat the EU elections as a necessary farce. I doubt if many other than ardent Brexiteers will bother to turn out How on earth do the Brexiteers avoid the practical problems of striking a deal with the 27, if they thoroughly pee them off before hand? Equally why would anyone give a better trade deal to the UK rather than the far larger EU? Forget Services – Banks and other Financial Services have already cut their own deal, which essentially preserves the status quo with the EU.
That depends how you define a ‘better deal’. EU deals are structured to ensure that they don’t damage EU states economies. In other words they protect the interests of states which often have dissimilar interests to our own. This works against us. For example, the EU will never do deals in areas such as agricultural produce with non-EU states because such would damage many EU state’s economies. We however would gain massively from agricultural deals with non EU states. Despite the shipping costs we can still buy North American Wheat far more cheaply that EU wheat were it not for the tariffs we must impose while an EU member. The same is true of South American agricultural products.
The problem with being an EU member is that the EU’s deals are cut for the benefit of the whole and such is not always to our benefit. Indeed it is often directly contrary to it.
So, Ed, why would states do a better deal with us than with the larger EU? We’ll isn’t that obvious? Its because we will do deals that the EU would never do because they seek to be too protectionist of French farmers, Spanish Orchards and Italian Wheat fields, for example.
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May 5, 2019 at 2:06 pm #33154I hear on LBC this morning that May and Corbin are close to stitching together the exact deal that NO ONE wants.
The details are to be announced on Tuesday but basically its May’s deal but with a full customs union and workers rights to be represented on company boards.
IF the above is true then Mrs Mays lame duck deal will probably pass when it is regurgitated again.
No EU elections, No Brexit, No problem for the politicians.
I think they have another thing coming.
May 5, 2019 at 4:23 pm #33156No chance of a cobbled May-Corbyn Deal after what JD said this morning. Its clear that Labour are looking for the way out from the negotiations and a way to blame it entirely on May. Plus they smell blood and know that May is about to suffer the night of the long knives which might just force a GE. Power even if it needs a confidence and supply deal with the wicked witch of the North is still power. I feel that a GE at some point this year is close to certain. Not least because without such scheduled the EU will probably force a No Deal in October because one state or another will veto any further extension.
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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
May 5, 2019 at 6:46 pm #33159US agricultural products come with a potentially hugeGMO penalty.
What your children eat today is reflected in their health in 40 years time. The GMO testing that is carried out is often driven by expedience rather than typical usage, and problems such as the carcinogenic properties of Roundup do not appear until much later. (80% of US GMO crops are treated with Roundup.)
May 5, 2019 at 10:25 pm #33165As per your link VFM. They STILL don’t get it do they.
May 5, 2019 at 11:01 pm #33167And here we see the problem and why we get nowhere as a nation. VFM, you and your kind are all about stopping things and coming up with fantasy scenarios that could never be agreed. At least the pseudo economic arguments have stopped in the face of reality and we’re down to personality politics and naked idealism.
We are now told that everyone voting Leave knew they were agreeing to No Deal even though that notion was so toxic at the time anyone mentioning it would have been ostracised. We would get a fantastic deal, it would be easy as the EU needed us more than we needed them. UKIP said it could be done in an afternoon over a cup of tea. The German industrialists and French farmers would be knocking on Tusk’s door demanding it was so. Dogs that didn’t bark.
VFM everything you have predicted that will get your cause over the line has failed. You are just an echo chamber for whatever Brexit faction you decide to get behind today. As one fails you jump to another, the one that is gaining headlines so you can get on the next band wagon with your mates. These factions are all totally bereft of any ideas that will actually get you where you want to be – outside of the EU.
They throw you and your kind some red meat and you eat it up and bay for more without looking where it’s come from. When will you see that real compromise is what’s needed for the sake of the nation and not an economic disaster of a No Deal, especially if that’s gained by annoying Brussels into doing it? The Westminster mathematics means that factional blowhards on all side get a disproportionate say (and in some cases £££) but they cannot persuade anyone else to their way of thinking, so here we go again – impasse.
A Corbyn – May deal may not be an ideal world but if it moves us further on you would have thought Brexiteers would be glad to get to the next and most important stage, the real deal. But no, it’s now about changing the constitution as well as leaving the EU now!
Listen to Farage, listen to Trump – you know VFM, the Trump you vilify. Farage moved on to attacking the press on national TV today, the “commentariat”. Ring any bells VFM? Will we be the 51st state of Trumpland where huge lies are the story of the day and if you’re caught out just tell another even bigger one. Blame everything on others, the opposition for sure and especially Johnny Foreigner who probably is here illegally.
Look at the road you are going down, really look at it and where it leads, it isn’t made of yellow bricks road and there is no rainbow. There may well be a wicked Wizard or two though.
May 6, 2019 at 6:08 pm #33179I have to applaud that post Dave. It says everything I would have liked to say to every rabid Brexiteer in my neck of the woods, and there are plenty! 70%+ Leave vote in East Lindsey.
I get your bitterness, that is how I feel. These people are living what they think is the dream: when the nightmare arrives their blame will be reserved for others.
When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.May 6, 2019 at 6:33 pm #33181And here we see the problem and why we get nowhere as a nation. VFM, you and your kind are all about stopping things and coming up with fantasy scenarios that could never be agreed. At least the pseudo economic arguments have stopped in the face of reality and we’re down to personality politics and naked idealism. We are now told that everyone voting Leave knew they were agreeing to No Deal even though that notion was so toxic at the time anyone mentioning it would have been ostracised. We would get a fantastic deal, it would be easy as the EU needed us more than we needed them. UKIP said it could be done in an afternoon over a cup of tea. The German industrialists and French farmers would be knocking on Tusk’s door demanding it was so. Dogs that didn’t bark. VFM everything you have predicted that will get your cause over the line has failed. You are just an echo chamber for whatever Brexit faction you decide to get behind today. As one fails you jump to another, the one that is gaining headlines so you can get on the next band wagon with your mates. These factions are all totally bereft of any ideas that will actually get you where you want to be – outside of the EU. They throw you and your kind some red meat and you eat it up and bay for more without looking where it’s come from. When will you see that real compromise is what’s needed for the sake of the nation and not an economic disaster of a No Deal, especially if that’s gained by annoying Brussels into doing it? The Westminster mathematics means that factional blowhards on all side get a disproportionate say (and in some cases £££) but they cannot persuade anyone else to their way of thinking, so here we go again – impasse. A Corbyn – May deal may not be an ideal world but if it moves us further on you would have thought Brexiteers would be glad to get to the next and most important stage, the real deal. But no, it’s now about changing the constitution as well as leaving the EU now! Listen to Farage, listen to Trump – you know VFM, the Trump you vilify. Farage moved on to attacking the press on national TV today, the “commentariat”. Ring any bells VFM? Will we be the 51st state of Trumpland where huge lies are the story of the day and if you’re caught out just tell another even bigger one. Blame everything on others, the opposition for sure and especially Johnny Foreigner who probably is here illegally. Look at the road you are going down, really look at it and where it leads, it isn’t made of yellow bricks road and there is no rainbow. There may well be a wicked Wizard or two though.
Dear of dear, Dave, such voluminous vitriol in a single post; and most based entirely on untruths.
Addressing your false statements one by one I have never withdrawn from my belief that in the mid to long term the UK will benefit economically from Brexit. I am in total agreement with Germany’s leading political think tank which believes that the EU will suffer more from our departure than would we and that we would prosper – if our side played it smart. Of course the reason we have a bad deal at present has nothing to do with Brexiteers. May ensured they had no power to negotiate a deal and proved that she is the kind of individual who would walk into DFS and come out having paid more than even full price for a sofa.
I have never said that voters voted for a No Deal as such. Rather that they did not vote to Leave only if there was a Deal. One thing is absolutely certain and that is that every household received a leaflet from Cameron which stated clearly that voting to leave meant we would leave the Customs Union and Single Market. So, yes, they did vote knowing they were voting for that and if such is not delivered then the electorate’s decision has very clearly been betrayed.
Given that you were once someone for whom I had great respect as a logical thinker I am saddened to find that you have so little grasp of the consequences of the N.I. Backstop. Yes, agreeing to May’s deal would get us to the next and important stage of the real trade negotiations. But I don’t know about you but in my world entering such negotiations with the gun that is the backstop to our heads fetters entirely the UK’s ability to fight its own corner in each area of trade for fear of the backstop being enacted locking us into a customs union potentially until 1999. As I said the evidence is absolute that the electorate voted for being out of the customs union. This why the backstop is unacceptable. I have also said that more than once here that I would accept the compromise that is May’s deal provided that the backstop was removed such that the trade negotiations were on a level footing. So to suggest I and most Brexiteers are not willing to compromise is simply untrue.
Where on earth did you get the thing about changing the constitution? Although given that we have no written constitution and hence that such constitution evolves of precedent I can see no reason why any future evolution achieved via the ballot box could ever be deemed to somehow be improper. Certainly the Brexit Party seeks to bring about any changes only via the ballot box so how could any changes it brought about ever be improper? Have you yourself not argued that FPTP is unfair? So surely you too have argued for changes to “the constitution”.
I have never blamed things on as you put it Johnny Foreigner. Indeed, I would not even blame WW1 or WW2 on Johnny Foreigner either; because wars are not usually the fault of a populous and are merely the fault of immoral or incompetent leaders. Heaven knows the EU commission is full of such. Tusk was voted out of office as PM in Poland. But then arrived as President of the EU Council. Do you know the sole EU state that voted against his Presidency? It was Poland, his home country which had itself voted him out. So it seems a country can vote an individual out of power but then find that individual in an even greater position over them. By that token were the UK to remain in the EU the UK electorate as a whole vote Theresa May out of power here she could still become a President of the EU with the UK having no power to veto such. That’s madness. Look around the senior officers of the EU and you will find nothing but politicians who were rejected by their own domestic electorates; it is an organisation run by self-serving fully certified political failures.
For me what shines greatest in all your posts is your total lack of confidence in the abilities of this nation and our young. Such is clear in your rancid fear of No Deal. The resolute belief that the UK cannot survive and thrive unless as a principality of the EU empire. Look around the world, Dave, the world is full of states that thrive without either huge quantities of natural resources or membership of huge trading blocs. Israel is a classic example. It survives economically of its own ingenuity and self belief despite being geographically smaller than Wales; and being not just estranged from its closest neighbours but with those neighbours even being overtly hostile to it. Of course, Dave, it is obvious that you plainly doubt that our people’s and our young have the similar ingenuity to survive and thrive I beg to differ.
So, Dave, we disagree but I do not let such disagreement turn me into a twisted soul brim full with burning vitriol of the kind your post strongly suggests that you might be. Calm done, laddy, you will give yourself a heart attack. Oh and try to have at least some faith and belief in our country’s people and abilities.
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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
May 6, 2019 at 8:39 pm #33184Will no one rid me of this turbulent thread?
The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans
May 6, 2019 at 8:57 pm #33185By tremendous good fortune, dwynnehugh, you find yourself on the ideal forum if you have such a problem. If your browser locks you to this thread such that you are forced to view it I’m sure one of us here can diagnose and solve that problem.
What browser are you using (i.e. it may be a software problem) or is it possible that you have some keys on your keyboard sticking (i.e. it may be a hardware problem). ???
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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
May 7, 2019 at 9:53 am #33187His point was the theat is pointless and circular.
May 7, 2019 at 10:21 am #33188I thought his problem was that he needed to be rid of reading it. There are many threads on this site that are often quite circular; or which I have no interest in or which I give up following. Dwynnehugh’s post suggested that he had found himself in some way forced to read this thread and could not simply ignore it if it held no interest for him. One wonders why if this thread holds no interest for him or if he dislikes the cut and thrust nature of it or if, as you suggest Duke, it is circular, why did/does he even bother to visit it let alone post on it. Fair comment?
Personally I’m not sure given that matters are constantly changing one can even argue that it is circular. Brexit is at a very different stage now than it was even a month or two ago. New parties have been formed; new deadlines set; new Westminster dynamics unfolding; the Tories now suddenly conniving with Labour, etc. There is clearly considerable and ongoing evolution which of its nature is not circular and hence is surely deserving of comment from all sides.
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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
May 7, 2019 at 11:09 am #33190VFM – whilst I totally uphold freedom of speech, opinions and expressions and I voted to REMAIN, this post has been going on for so long and during that time in many instances there has been and still is a great deal of acrimony with strongly held opinions on either side. Like many on Forumite and more than likely in the UK general public too, I am heartily sick to the back teeth of it all.
As I have said before, the opinions of all on this thread who have contributed to the debate are in the scale of the big picture are totally of no value. What will / if happens will result as of what takes place in the UK & EU Parliaments and everything and anything said on this thread will have absolutely no value or effect at all on the final decision. I partly read these posts, not to gain any information, but mainly to see who would like to cut the previous posters throat.
The whole is a circular pointless never ending argument, and anything we add now will have no effect at all.
The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans
May 7, 2019 at 11:37 am #33191This thread must stay or this Brexit business leaks out in other threads where it does NOT belong ?
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