Brexit now = CETA +/-?

[Ed P]

According to Ladbrookes it is a crap-shoot between Bojo and Corbyn, both are joint favourites. Some bookmakers put Bojo slightly ahead.

Imo both are a disaster but Bojo would be worse as he has proven himself to be untrustworthy both in his private and political life.

[Bob Williams]

Churchill may have committed several errors in his lifetime, but he was indisputably intelligent. Boris Johnson is not. He is the complete Public School buffoon. We think we have a bad PM now: less than six months of BoJo would have us wishing for TM back.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Dave Rice]

This is how people like Berlusconi and Trump get it.

But I thought all the blue brexiteers had cut up their membership cards? They can’t do that and vote BoJo in. More contradictory stories spun for the desired result at that time. He won’t get in the top two, I doubt there will be a top two, another coronation I expect.

[Ed P]

Bojo is many odious things but he is not thick – he received an Upper Second in Ancient Literature and Philosophy. However throughout his life teachers all lamented his laziness. He started his career in dissembling by portraying himself as an SDP candidate when standing for the Oxford Presidency despite being a Conservative up to that point. He was sacked from his first job at the Times for lying.

[The VFM Addict]

It is amazing the rose coloured spectacles with which the country view Churchill.   I laud his handling or WW2 the man was the perfect fit for our needs at that time.   But it is untrue to say he was trustworthy in either his private or political life.    While married he had an affair with a glamorous socialite and in politics he abandoned his party twice, (Tory>Liberals>Tory), as and when it favoured his own career prospects.  As David Lloyd George said to him, “You will one day discover that the state of mind revealed in (your) letter is the reason why you do not win trust even where you command admiration. In every line of it, national interests are completely overshadowed by your personal concern.”

Churchill was always a warmonger favouring intervention around the globe even advocating UK involvement in the Russian Revolution and declaring that Bolshevism must be “strangled in its cradle”.    Plus of course his desire the follow WW2 immediately with WW3 rolling on from the fall of Berlin straight to Moscow.   Even in 1946 before the USSR had atomic weapons he put in a memo to Truman the suggestion that the USA launch a pre-emptive nuclear attack on Moscow.   Yep, he was one hell of warmonger.    But I say again one needs a warmonger during a war and he was the ideal PM to prosecute WW2.

A lot or carp is spoken about Winnie’s view on Europe.    Yes, he was in favour of a United States of Europe but and its a huge but he was quite clear that he believed the the UK should be to use his words “with Europe but not of it.”    To me that very clearly reads as close links. joint projects, an FTA, etc., but definitely NOT a member of the EU or as it is planned to be a USofE.

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[The Duke]

It matter little now, what his view was then. Times have changed, a lot, and he is long dead. The world has moved on. So, it’s not worth discussing what some guy from almost 100 years ago though about joing Europe.

There is many reasons to discuss him and his view on Europe and the world, his life and career. But not when in relation to 2019 an brexit.

Given he has been dead about 50 years, no of us could actually know what his position would be. As pointed out above, the guy was like a flip flop.

 

[Dave Rice]

I think the reason he gets mentioned is because, like Jeremy Clarkson, peoples gut instinct is that he would be a natural Brexiteer. I’m sure Brexiteers would love to be able to use his image, I’ve seen an American cartoon that fell into that trap.

But Steve’s right, Europe now and then is very different. Who knows what he’d have to say now, we can only speculate. There is a lot of historical revisionism going on, Bristol is rife with it to do with the slave trade. That has never been swept under the carpet, I have know about it and Bristol’s part in it from a very early age.

[The Duke]

Liverpool had a big roll in that one too Dave.

[Ed P]

Most of the then known world participated in one form or another. Slavers were in general Arabs who bought African captives from the more war-like African tribes. such as the Hausa and the Kongo. The slavers in turn sold to the merchant traders from Europe with Portugal probably playing the largest role.

While this was all reprehensible, the UK were the first to ban the trade, and this should not be overlooked in the self-flagellation blame game.

[The VFM Addict]

Slavery in the UK was never permitted but the Act of 1807 banned it in statute both across the UK and the British Empire.   I’ve always thought of the whole thing as very much sleight of hand given that we effectively condoned apartheid across the commonwealth until the very last decade of the 20th Century.    Apartheid in my book was simply modernised slavery because rather than enslave individuals which makes its purpose obvious one instead enslaves whole races giving a false impression that the individuals are free.

I think Desmond Tutu pretty much encapsulated the principle of that modernised slavery that pervaded the 19th century when he said, “When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said ‘Let us pray.’  So we closed our eyes and prayed.  When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land”.

Look at the very stern position we adopted when Ian Smith in order to preserve apartheid in Rhodesia made his UDI.  Oh sorry you can’t look at it because there was none.  A few huff and puffs and weak sanctions to make it look like we were concerned but no real action whatsoever.

Even Thatcher never condemned apartheid in South Africa and pretty much condoned it doing all she could to avoid having to put sanctions in place re South Africa calling Mandela and the ANC “typical terrorists”.    It wasn’t until de Klerk removed the ban on the ANC and released Mandela at the start of the 1990’s that things began to change and that had nothing to do with UK government pressure because there was pretty much zero of that for a century and a half.

All I’m really saying is that while Wilberforce unquestionably had good intent in fighting for the 1807 Act and I believe the British people in the main felt similarly, as so often is the case the establishment simply followed a route that complied with the letter of the law but found its way to generally ignore its spirit.   I’m not flagellating we the British people but would without the slightest hesitation take a whip to many in the establishment over the decades and centuries who in my book are fully deserving of such; and that as regards her position re apartheid included Thatcher.

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[dwynnehugh]

Not wishing to inflame any current viewpoints on this topic, my own feelings are that Teresa May should have approached the Brexit talks with a team of cross-parliament, irrespective of political colours from the outset colours an not try and hold it as a Conservative Brexit only. At least such a position involving cross party MP inc some of the smaller ones, would in my opinion, have proved more fruitful in the end.  Brexit / No Brexit / Remain / Delay / abort Article 50 will be a problem for successive governments for the next decade in my opinion.  The current Tory only stand allows everyone in opposition to put their own ‘penneth-worth in’ in the full knowledge that they will never be called to account.

Imho it should have been a  cross parliament team from the outset and not an attempt to get a Tory victory!!! ????????????  Look at where we are now.

Just my thoughts as a sick to the back teeth voter who voted to remain (as my kids felt their futures were better with the EU) whereas my heart said “GET OUT ASAP.”

The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

[Bob Williams]

Dwynne I agree with every word of that. The result should have led to Parliament getting together as a voice of and for the whole of the British people and presenting a united front to find the best way forward. Instead, we have had the totally disgusting, unedifying spectacle of MP’s attempting to form power bases and improve what they see as their own standing. All they have achieved is a political mess, their constituents largely repelled and looking for something better.

I am as fed up with the whole odorous, incompetently organised process as yourself and I should think 99% of the UK. I also voted Remain as I shared your feelings that your kids would be better off in than out. Now I just want it all to end.

More problems for the EU: when the German economy catches a cold, the EU sneezes:

http://tinyurl.com/yxf6t8qt

This is not over yet. I know Germany and I know the German people. The thoughts of a depression haunts them.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Wheels-Of-Fire]

I agree that Brexit should have been delivered as neither left wing or right wing. Because it isn’t. For a change it is just one issue. Take back control or not. And we voted for tack back.

One more thing. If anyone thinks the youth of today have new ideas have a look on YouTube at any episode of the young ones. Same drivel back in 1982.

[Ed P]

Wheels-Of-Fire wrote:

Take back control or not. And we voted for tack back.

It would be interesting to find out what Brexit voters actually voted for, as no Brexit manifesto was ever produced. I have my suspicion based on a number of discussions that this ‘take back control; was bottom of the list.  Bojo’s lie about more money for the NHS will never happen given the billions wasted so far. Take back control of regulations for any EU imports (and data) was also a typical Bojo lie. The way that the Good Friday Agreement is tied in with the Court of Human Rights even makes it difficult (impossible?) to untangle that can of worms.

[dwynnehugh]

I cannot help but smile at the comments ‘we didn’t know what we voted for’ faction – no we didn’t but looking at the last 2 odd years I honestly don’t think anyone else did either. We were asked a simple IN/OUT question – we chose out and if I am totally honest, I don’t think anyone in the UK or the EU was aware of what was ahead.

We are the first to ‘leave?’ – there is no blueprint as to the method of leaving, again if honest I don’t think any UK politician knew either – hence the current scenario in the House of Idiots. What I certainly do know is that MPs, Ministers et al put party politics and loyalties before the will of the people. The people will not forget.

If we were to get a general election tomorrow I strongly suspect that the H of Commons cat would stand a very good chance of being elected.

The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

[Bob Williams]

To anyone and everyone looking for the possibility of something better in UK politics: check out The Independent Group.

http://tinyurl.com/y3pufbaj

I have signed up and am supporting them. I am so sick and tired of the same old carp from the same old talking heads. If these guys can make a real difference, I will continue to support them. Take a look at “Read Our Statement.”

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[keith with the teef]

Speaking for my self. Obvs. I do hope the consrvative party catch up with May and get her out asp with a vote of no confidence.

Its clear now, the girl has OCD.

Big time. 🙂

[Bob Williams]

If they do manage to remove TM PM Keith, what alternatives are there amongst the squabbling, divided rabble that was once the Conservative Party?

If you say BoJo again I shall doubt your sanity!

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Ed P]

I believe the problems with our ‘democracy’ go well beyond the two party system, it needs a total rewrite starting with a major change in boundaries to better represent the population. It then needs proportional representation, and written constitution to do away with all the outmoded costume drama.

No new laws should be introduced without retiring an old outmoded law. We are over regulated and there are far too many constraints on personal liberties.

I actually would leave the House of Lords as a reviewing chamber but eliminate all inherited positions and get rid of the disproportionate say of the Bishopric. I would ensure that it was filled with people who had expertise in the wide range of subjects demanded by the modern world. I would give them the power to completely amend and sling back to the Commons any laws/regulations where it was evident they had not thought through all the problems and issues.

[The VFM Addict]

Bob Williams wrote:

To anyone and everyone looking for the possibility of something better in UK politics: check out The Independent Group. http://tinyurl.com/y3pufbaj I have signed up and am supporting them. I am so sick and tired of the same old carp from the same old talking heads. If these guys can make a real difference, I will continue to support them. Take a look at “Read Our Statement.”

Are you having a laugh. Bob?   You can’t be serious?    Their current spokesperson is Heidi Allen, the most two faced duplicitous MP in Parliament and that says something.   Have you never seen this?

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

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