Brexit now = CETA +/-?

[Dave Rice]

I cannot vote out my MP, nor any of the civil servants who run the country and my local council.

I see you have invoked Godwins Law, it was only a matter of time.

[Ed P]

VFM – if you are going to make contentious assertions about the EU please ensure that they are accurate!

“In addition to its role in approving a new Commission, the European Parliament has the power at any time to force the entire Commission to resign through a vote of no confidence. This requires a vote that makes up at least two-thirds of those voting and a majority of the total membership of the Parliament. While it has never used this power, it threatened to use it against the Commission headed by Jacques Santer in 1999 over allegations of corruption. In response, the Santer Commission resigned en masse of its own accord, the only time a Commission has done so. ”

That is even more power than we have over our Whitehall Mandarins!

[The VFM Addict]

Dave Rice wrote:

I cannot vote out my MP, nor any of the civil servants who run the country and my local council. I see you have invoked Godwins Law, it was only a matter of time.

Not really, Dave.   I could have cited our battles with William in 1066 or with Napoleon in the early 1800’s.  The principle remains the same.    This has nothing to do with the Nazi’s or Hitler.   It is a simple question of whether one desires to be controlled by appointed Lords or elected representatives who represent the opinions of their electorate.

Indeed that you cite that you have no say in the UK surely validates that government should reside as close to its electorate as possible rather than be moved to a point even more remote.    I believe in PR for Westminster which would solve your problem instantly giving you a real say.     But moving decision making further away makes no sense to me.   Look for example at the demonstrations in Westminster of late or even at the time of the Poll Tax riots.    How many who were there would or could have been involved had they had to travel to Brussels or Strasbourg to protest or lobby.    The reality is that the EU commission which proposes legislation can only be lobbied there and hence only big business has the resources to lobby.    Remember – Your local MEP is impotent because the EU parliament can neither propose nor repeal legislation no matter how strong those elected individuals feel about an issue.   Had the poll tax come from Europe then it would have been almost impossible to reverse.

The mantra that most Leavers didn’t know what they were voting for may or may not be true.  But when I ask Remainers if they understand how the EU is governed I can assure you that the percentage of Remainers who don’t have a clue and think that the EU Parliament runs like ours and has control is close to 99%.    They most definitely do not know what they voted for.

 

 

_______________________________________________________________________________________

During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[Ed P]

“But when I ask Remainers if they understand how the EU is governed …”

Based on your assertion about the EU Commissioners I could very easily make the same comment about Brexiters, but I Would include comments about being economical with facts.

Just so you can be more accurate in your assertions in the future here is a handy guide to the roles of an MEP and how it fits in with repealing legislation.

[Dave Rice]

Yet still you invoke jingoism and result to insults. Because your comment was incredibly insulting. How dare you imply that people who hold opposite views to yourself are some how guilty of some sort of moral cowardice. Yet this is typical of the way that I find leavers of a certain age and gender end up going. The situation we face today is in no way comparable to any of the historical events you mention.

Come here to North Bristol (or North Wales) and stand outside the Airbus gates and explain how your bold vision is going to improve their lives. Then go down the road to the small engineering workshops that provide them with parts and do the same.

Never mind boys, you can vote out your MP if we get it wrong. Ah no you can’t. It’s the same safe seat Dave lives in…

[The VFM Addict]

I would not fundamentally disagree with you, Ed.   Both sides as I see it concentrated on the financial aspects and each side exaggerated their case deceitfully.   But, heck, they were all politicians so could we reasonably expect anything else.

If the Brexit battle has to be re fought then it will plainly be concerning democracy for obvious reasons. So perhaps the undemocratic nature of the EU will then get more attention.

As I said earlier explaining that the EU is run in a fashion akin to our HoL having control and the HoC having very little, is in my experience something most folks can understand quite easily. When I have explained that to folks they appear quite quickly to understand that there is a very, very strong case for leaving.   That said it is true that folks are inclined to vote mainly on how things will affect their pockets in the short term.  So perhaps the vote would be to remain were there a re-run.  However, I would still have my fears because the democratic void in the EU can only ever lead sooner or later to the outcome that invariably results from such and that is an outcome as ugly as things ever get.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[Ed P]

But you are not a politician of the Bojo ilk  VFM, so I expect better of you,. It is even worse that you continue to spout nonsense about lack of control when it is obvious that MEPs have more powers than our MPs.

[The VFM Addict]

Dave Rice wrote:

Yet still you invoke jingoism and result to insults. Because your comment was incredibly insulting. How dare you imply that people who hold opposite views to yourself are some how guilty of some sort of moral cowardice. Yet this is typical of the way that I find leavers of a certain age and gender end up going. The situation we face today is in no way comparable to any of the historical events you mention. Come here to North Bristol (or North Wales) and stand outside the Airbus gates and explain how your bold vision is going to improve their lives. Then go down the road to the small engineering workshops that provide them with parts and do the same. Never mind boys, you can vote out your MP if we get it wrong. Ah no you can’t. It’s the same safe seat Dave lives in…

If you feel insulted then you are.  I cannot argue with that even though such was not my intent.   I was merely saying that there are two different arguments here.  One is re democracy and the other is financial gain.

Let me ask you, Dave, were money not an issue and both outcomes Leave or Remain were neutral as regards such would you vote to be run by a distant body of ‘appointed Lords’ rather than those you could elect or remove?  I truly suspect not.    Indeed the way you rail against your vote not counting re Westminster pretty much shows how you object profusely to having no real say.    If that is so then is it not equally so that you must be arguing to stay in the EU merely on a financial basis because sure as hell distancing of democracy and disenfranchisement which EU membership brings is something you would strongly disagree with were it not for the financial arguments.

As for you saying that the examples I cited were not comparable I beg to differ.    Theft of Democracy by force of arms in 1066, in 1939, etc. and Theft of Democracy by stealth in 1993 (Maastricht) remains Theft of Democracy and are comparable on that basis.    Such is no different from saying that aggravated burglary and Complex Fraud are comparable because they are.   Both are theft.

I recall on the old MM Forum when the issue of Brexit first surfaced the first insult that was written was about Brexiteers.   Someone who will remain nameless piled in calling those who wanted to leave delusional.    Since then we have had the referendum and almost all insults I hasve ever heard have been from Remainers against Brexiteers calling us Racist or Thick, etc.    I am far from racist and frankly am in favour of immigration from all around the world.    I’ve spent most of my working life with physicians from the Indian Subcontinent and am very upset that nowadays an Eastern European doctor can walk in but an Indian physician with even higher qualifications cannot.    I can’t see that such is in our best interests.   I know what I voted for.   Democracy and I am prepared to pay a financial cost to restore it to these shores and to provide the opportunity for us to source our needs, be they be material or intellectual, from wherever they are available without hinder.    What’s wrong with that?

We must all make up our own minds as to why we are voting in a particular way.    I asked myself what price democracy?   And I reached my own decision.   I am prepared to and have perhaps here, explained how I reached my decision.    I an not delusioned, nor racist, nor thick.     Nor do I seek to cause offence.    But I do believe my arguments are sound.    If you do not believe them to be so then that is your prerogative and I do not take offence.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[The VFM Addict]

Ed P wrote:

But you are not a politician of the Bojo ilk VFM, so I expect better of you,. It is even worse that you continue to spout nonsense about lack of control when it is obvious that MEPs have more powers than our MPs.

Can you defend that position?   I am certain you cannot.   It is nonsense.    Let me demonstrate such.   Upskirting –   Not even the entire EU parliament in total unison would have the power to propose such legislation.    Only the appointed commissioners (i.e. the EU Commission) can propose legislation.     And what about the current repeal of EU legislation in the UK.   The EU parliament has no power whatsoever to repeal any EU law.

I don’t believe for one second that you declared true that which is plainly untrue, intentionally.  It seems to me the problem can only be subconscious Confirmation Bias.    The evidence is there robust and overwhelming that MEP’s have no power but because it does not confirm or reinforce your position you are subconsciously blinded to it.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[Ed P]

VFM I would give your arguments more credence if you did not accept the deceits of Arron Banks et al., without at least questioning their veracity.  I’ve addressed your other misconceptions, but to put to bed your point on Third World Skilled Workers – here is the EU paper on attracting such workers to the EU.

If you want to place blame on not being able to get an Indian specialist then blame Theresa May’s policies when she was in the Home Office, not the EU!

On your diversion into upskirting (which incidentally was blocked by a UK MP), I think I just need to quote the main duties of an MEP:

“The European Parliament has the power to amend or block proposals from the Commission for new EU legislation or changes to existing legislation. Through votes in Parliament or Parliamentary Committees, MEPs can also ask the Commission to bring forward proposals for new legislation. Thus, the European Commission and European Parliament have a close working relationship.”

In other words just like the UK, MEPs can ask the equivalent of our Office of the Parliamentary Counsel to draft legislation.

[Ed P]

Of course we cannot unilaterally repeal EU legislation, that would be a job of our MEP.s.  EU law affects all the member states and it would be anarchy for one to go its own way.

As EU law affects all member countries there are very good practical reasons why the European Parliament cannot just pass legislation, the interests and established laws of all the member states would need to be first taken into account. That is why the EU parliament asks the Commission to bring forward legislation to address a need. Bringing in new laws is a complex business (e.g.one reason why  upskirting has not yet been made an offence) and not something that can be done on the back of an envelope. The process of bringing in a law for all the member states is even more complex.

If you argue that such a process is cumbersome and in need of change I would not demure in any way, however it is a falsity to say that MEPs play no part in the process.

[The VFM Addict]

I will respond to your above two posts, Ed, as if one long post.

You start as often do all Remainers with a line of insults. Don’t worry I don’t take offence but I do wish Remainers would develop insight. Can you not see that your first line in essence says I am gullible and incapable of my own research?

I have not the slightest doubt that the time I have spent learning how the EU works legislatively has dwarfed your own. For the last three years I have been fully retired and for the five years previous to such I worked only occasionally on projects usually from home as my partner is disabled and needs someone around at home pretty much constantly.  I have had so much free time over those years and to stop myself going brain dead I have read extensively on the way the EU works.

Now, where to start re the core tenets of your post?

First, the issue of non-EU workers. You missed my point entirely. Although I do accept some blame for that as I was perhaps unclear as to what I meant. I did not mean that under EU rules we could not admit workers from non-EU states. I agree it was May’s quotas that caused that. What I meant was that EU workers can ‘walk in’ and the UK cannot refuse such. Whereas professionals from abroad can be refused and were due to May’s quotas and at the very least had to jump through hoops to enter. Does that make sense now? I want too see a level playing field. It isn’t level at present and even if May’s quotas were set aside the need to hoop jump to recruit from anywhere other than the EU to a degree disincentives such while we remained an EU member.

Moving on your quote re the role of the EP is correct. But note that it confirms exactly what I said. The EP cannot propose legislation and it can only ‘ask’ for such or ‘ask’ for such to be brought forward. In that respect the EP has no more power than do you and I have re Westminster because you and I can ‘ask’ the government for a particular piece of legislation.   MEPs have no more power to compel the Commission than do you or I to compel the UK Government.   As I said in an earlier post – Confirmation Bias.    There it is no power to compel merely the option  to ‘ask’, which is no power at all.   But you can’t see that.

I really did not understand your statement that read. “Of course we cannot unilaterally repeal EU legislation, that would be a job of our MEP.s. EU law affects all the member states and it would be anarchy for one to go its own way.”

I never suggested that we (the UK) could unilaterally repeal legislation. I was very clear that I was talking of the EP (i.e. all MEPs in total unison) not having the power to propose repealing legislation. That is the case, absolutely. It can only consider legislation proposed by the unelected Commission, be that new primary legislation or repealing legislation.  Think of it this way.  The situation in the EU is similar to the UK domestic situation reversed.  Here the HoC proposes legislation and the HoL is the revising chamber. In the EU it is the reverse. Only the unelected arm, the Commission, can propose legislation. The elected arm, the EP, cannot propose legislation and is in the main the revising chamber. If the EP refuses to pass legislation the Commission will typically amend and resubmit. Yet again a similar flow to ours but in reverse as regards unelected to elected arms.

Your closing paragraphs get close again to insults.  Of course I know the processes involved in drafting legislation and that such cannot be done on the back of an envelope; although I can point to several UK Acts which are very powerful but would fit on a C4 envelope due to their simplicity, such as the Malicious Communications Act.  The point I was making was that a Westminster MP can propose legislation and alone could get it through to enactment assuming the members of the HoC vote it into the statute books.  However an MEP has no such power or ability. Indeed the entire EP in unison has not that degree of power or ability.

I must take you to task very strongly on your last line. I most definitely did not say that “MEPs play no part in the process” of legislating. I had said nothing more or less than that no MEP alone nor the full EP in unison has the power to propose or repeal legislation unless such primary or repealing legislation is handed down to them by the unelected arm of the EU; i.e. the Commission.   If elected members of a parliament cannot propose legislation and can only opine and rule on legislation handed down to them by unelected officers then, to me that is not democracy.  Perhaps to you it is in which case we must agree to differ.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[Ed P]

I’m sorry if you saw my remarks as insulting, but you appeared to be totally ignoring the evidence I gave.

However to respond to your point on there being a democratic deficit in the EU constitution …

If the EU parliament as a body wanted a specific piece of legislation they could just ask the Commission  for it. If the Commissioners refused they could vote them out. Far more power indeed than our MPs have over our own House of Lords.

This is not perfect, and it certainly is clumsy but it does answer the issue of MEPs introducing legislation that is badly drafted or in conflict with existing national laws.

You used the Friday Private Members Bills as an example of a missing element of democracy. Conservative MP Sir Christopher Chope says he objected to the Upskirting Law (as he does to most such Friday Private Members Bills) as the procedure for these Bills does not allow for proper democratic debate, at which perhaps pertinent issues could be brought to the attention of the House.

Answering the outcry in the House, Theresa May says that she will now look for Parliamentary time to bring forward such a law or amend an existing law (as they did in Scotland). In some respect this is analogous to the clumsy process required in the MEP/Commissioners relationship.

Repeal of laws is always a worthy objective (we have far too many of our own already). However. unless it were a very simple law I could see that it faces the same conflicts with existing National Laws and would not be an easy process. It is perhaps for that reason that the EU use the term ‘codification’ for their repeal or amalgamation of EU laws.

I am aware of only one very important area where I would agree that there is a huge democratic deficit and that is money. The Commission sets the budget and associated taxation, parliament only acts as an advisory body.

The EU is far from perfect and both the French and Germans have stated there is a need for reform. In an ideal world perhaps we would have been better to have worked with them some years ago and introduced the necessary changes. The treaty level is perhaps where the EU is still both diplomatic and democratic.

 

[The Duke]

Let’s calm down on the insults, even the passive aggressive ones. Or this will have to be closed.

We are all friends here, let’s not let this issue end that. As at the end of the day, it matters little what any of us think about it. What ever happens will happen regardless of our opinions. So let’s keep our debates civil.

[Ed P]

I’ll certainly agree to disagree with VFM over the EU and ‘Democracy’.

I probably have a very different world view of UK democracy as I believe that irrespective of the EU it fails the test of ‘democracy’ in a great many respects. As a simple examples of that statement, we cannot elect out local Fire/Police Chiefs the way they do in the US, nor have frequent public referenda and proportional representation the way they do in Eire.  There are many others but I will not bore anyone with these as most could be viewed as trivial. Our democracy is designed to just give people a vestige of power but is in effect delegated responsibility without real decision making ability. (When such power is accidentally let loose — Neighbourhood Planning for example, it is quickly curtailed and rolled back.)

Do I really care — no.

I actually think that pure democracy is a recipe for management by Committee, and potentially disastrous. It either fails to do anything or results in a common consensus that pleases no-one. In my view the best sort of ruler is a Benevolent Dictator. The person I know who came closest to that ideal was the PM of Singapore, Lee Kuan Yu – hated by most of the International Press, but he ran a damned good corruption-free country.

[The VFM Addict]

I was going to respond to, Ed’s post above but then a loud gun shot grabbed my attention.    Yesterday, the EU both whipped off its mask, revealing it has been seeking to punish us and in the same move shot all UK Remainers in the back probably fatally.

As you probably know the EU yesterday finalised a comprehensive Free Free Trade deal with Japan.   Alignment with car safety and environmental standards was required as was the adoption of International labelling standards re Medicines and Textiles but that was about it.    It did not require Japan to join the customs union or to join the single market or for the ECJ to have supreme jurisdiction regarding dispute resolution.

Quite clearly a free trade deal of the kind Brexiteers have said was possible is possible.   And only the EU’s desire to punish the UK or May’s inability to negotiate resolutely has prevented such.

If another Brexit referendum takes place I am now certain that the vote will be massively in favour of Leave because one of the Remainers central arguments has now been shot dead by the EU itself.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[The Duke]

It’s funny the way you say EU screwed remainers. They didn’t. It’s their job to makes trade deals so all memberstates don’t have to. So no screwing went on. Just another day in the EU office. It’s not their concern on how their deals effects non member nations. It’s not their business.

the statement about punishment, of course there will be punishments. I’d expect nothing less. If I was on team EU I’d be demanding it.

Looks a good deal for uk car plants. Sorry looks a terrible deal I ment. Which about evey man and his dog knew that credit means trh end to the majority of car production eventually. And as day e pointed out Airbus (round corner) is likely l to go, even if we figure out a way to make it work for now. Long term, the orders/contracts will thin out.

The Finance markets will leak away too. All the stuff we’re good at, all the stuff loads of our economy needs to continue.

The country won’t be a good place for 20 years IF (I still think it a big if) the uk leaves. I care little who gets to make the politic orders, bothers me little if it’s a shower of shite in London or brussels. The only real election that ever changes my life noticeable is local elections. Generals seem to be a waist of time. For ever its go, tory saves money, everyone gets fed up, so labour comes in and we spend all the money, so tories come back in and save money…… All crap. I’ll take the EU over our lot, given ours have a dismal track record.

Maybe we have too many levels of leader ship. How about just scrapping the lot.

Why we are at it, at 16 I’d of loved an EU army, I’d of signed up to some regiment that basis iteself in south Europe. I’m all up for an EU army.

 

[Spedley]

I still think you are mostly crazy!

Despite what people think of the EU, working together as a people is far better then closing borders and putting up barriers.  If Brexit does somehow result in us improving our global trade then with the sum of averages somewhere else is going to suffer because of it – we are unlikely to increase global trade, just take more of it.
In my opinion the whole principle of Leaving the EU to try and push ourselves up is a very Tory viewpoint and concentrates on oneself rather than the whole … but then you expect to live amongst the whole but slightly richer.
It is just wrong in principle.

Then we go for Corbyn.  He isn’t a commie, he isn’t a Marxist, nor a socialist (well maybe).  These are all terms used to classify and study political situations and most of them only vaguely apply these days with ‘capitalism’ being so ingrained in most of the world.
I don’t say that Corbyn is the perfect PM but at the moment he is by far the best choice.  Corbyn believes the state should serve the people which this country needs at the moment.  I don’t believe he’d be the best person for WW3, nor the best long term but for the next term or two I think he could set the country back on the path of prosperity through investment rather than greed.

i7 4790s / 8GB / 480GB SSD / GTX 980 / 34" UltraWide : i3 4170 / 8GB / 480GB SSD / GTX 770 / 24" Samsung : i3 4130 / 8GB / 500GB Spinner / GTX 1050 / 23" Acer : Q9550 / 8GB / 1TB Spinner / GTX 580 / 22" Acer : i7 720QM / 8GB / 1TB+2TB+500GB Spinners (server) : i5 4570 / 8GB / 60GB SSD / 1TB / GeForce 210 / 22" Dell It's getting warm in here!

[Dave Rice]

Exactly.

I now can’t work out who’s a rebel Tory and who’s not the policy shifts so quickly. It’s time Jacob Rees Mogg, Boris, Gove etc. went on TV and spelled out what no deal will mean. And I don’t mean trade and WTO rules, which is all they bang on about, it’s everything else.

[keith with the teef]

With the primeminiser on the ropes! Will Boris’s resegnation speech be the knock out blow for the PM this safto?

[Author]

Posts