Brexit now = CETA +/-?

[The VFM Addict]

I have seen no sign of intolerance in your posts, Bob.   I agree that polls are often wrong as are other predictions.   To my mind the ‘margin of error’ is in reality far wider than pollsters consider it to be.  Certainly polls where there is live interaction between pollster and subject seem to often be well off (many people keep only their own counsel).

I’m fascinated by your last paragraph.    If you believe the first ref result should be respected how would you vote in a new ref were it not?   This is the dilemma that many are wrestling with.   I know two Remainers who are torn between standing by the democratic principle that the first ref must be respected and perhaps overturning it with a second ref vote.

As I see it we were all told in Cameron’s Leaflet that the result would be enacted – leave the SM and CU.  I cannot see how until that has happened the first result have ever been respected.

 

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[Wheels-Of-Fire]

Ah yes, Cameron’s leaflet. I read that through thoughly and then  sent it back to No 10 with a short note that just stated “Lies,dam lies, statistics and now this”. At the time I thought that at least the bit about respecting the once in a life time vote was true but I turns out my statement was accurate after all.

[Ed P]

As there was never a published Brexit manifesto, it is very difficult to say just what the ‘Leave’ voters actually voted for.

a) Bojos’s dissembling over the NHS funding was basically lies. What we actually finish up having to pay the EU is currently moot. Some things we would be foolish not to keep e.g.as an example our contribution to EU Fusion research.

b) Not having a say on EU regulations is just lies, complaints on transparency are something else. However, the setting of regulations within the UK is similarly undemocratic and opaque in that it is mainly farmed out to ‘experts’ or ‘expert’ bodies. All nations have regulations over which we have no say. Had Cameron’s negotiations been allowed to complete we would have been able to move more towards the French treatment of regulations.

c) We were promised an easy ridel over the Customs Union as this allowed Brexiteers to ignore the Irish question. I guess we have to see just how easy such a deal will be. Just for the record we have not even started to talk what we wish to negotiate in that respect, hence a lot of EU  and MP frustration We are effectively still at the stupid stage of ‘Brexit means Brexit’ inanity.

d) The only area which is common ground with current and pre-Referendum promises is that of free movement of people. However, as events have shown it cannot eradicate the need for EU workers it can only apply controls. Of course it has little impact on illegal migration. From comments made in the press it is arguable whether or not it would make it easier to send people back to France both statements appear true!.

[JayCeeDee]

Ed P wrote:

As there was never a published Brexit manifesto, it is very difficult to say just what the ‘Leave’ voters actually voted for.

The whole thing, from both sides, generated Project Fear, Project Utopia and Project Bullsh1t.

Everybody harps on about honouring the result of the Referendum, but after however many months of the above, I reckon a very small percentage of the population were actually making an informed decision, because all that went before qualified more as dis-information!!

If ( when ) a second Ref comes about, they’ll be better informed, but a lot more confused!!

[The VFM Addict]

JayCeeDee wrote:

Ed P wrote:

As there was never a published Brexit manifesto, it is very difficult to say just what the ‘Leave’ voters actually voted for.

The whole thing, from both sides, generated Project Fear, Project Utopia and Project Bullsh1t. Everybody harps on about honouring the result of the Referendum, but after however many months of the above, I reckon a very small percentage of the population were actually making an informed decision, because all that went before qualified more as dis-information!! If ( when ) a second Ref comes about, they’ll be better informed, but a lot more confused!!

I agree with your last sentence 100%.   I think though you miss out the word ‘angry’ because anger has been generated in volume by the last two years parliamentary gaming.   Anger will always find a a means to vent and I am fairly certain that Joe Public thinks that government didn’t/couldn’t just get on and get it done because of those in parliament that wanted to reverse the result.    I do expect a far larger turnout if there is a Ref2 and that the bulk of the increase will not be the young but those that want to vent their anger.   Who that will also hit come the next GE will not be parties but individual MPs.   Folks no longer divide along party lines they divide based on their position re Brexit.

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[JayCeeDee]

………… I think though you miss out the word ‘angry’ because anger has been generated in volume by the last two years parliamentary gaming. Anger will always find a a means to vent and I am fairly certain that Joe Public thinks that government didn’t/couldn’t just get on and get it done because of those in parliament that wanted to reverse the result.

I don’t think peoples anger will be aimed towards the government alone, or the supposed Reversalists so to speak. They blame Parliament, ie the whole system – especially the current incumbents of Parliament – for the debacle and the dire situation we currently find ourselves in. Over recent decades the whole shebang has lost credibility, respect, integrity etc, etc. Confrontation Politics has been at the forefront of Parliament for the last few decades and had been fomenting and festering for a few before that. The opposition is supposed to be there to keep the Government on track, not to jockey for power for themselves. Self interest, both on a personal and party level has been the driving force for some time now on both sides. The country they are supposed to be leading has followed a poor runner-up.

I’m sick of the lot of them actually, and despair that were the current lot to be ousted, we would have as many, if not more, problems with whatever alternative presented itself and won.

I’ve said it before that I have been a lifelong Labour supporter, but with Jeremy at the forefront with Momentums’ hand up his back and driving his purpose, I couldn’t in all conscience vote for them and if they are hoping for the youth vote to create a ‘Canterbury’ effect, they are rapidly losing that as well.

[The Duke]

I think Labour is a joke, and has been since TB killed of their reputation, and they never found a string eight leader to take them a ‘a’ direction. It’s been a joke.

The tories haven been much better, and everyone hated Cameron but jokes in us ad we got May!

I think this mess could be a great oppertunity for the lib dems (remember them lol) to grab alot of seats. If I was them (I don’t even know who’s in charge), and an GE is called, I’d stand on one issue, staying in the EU, I font know if they would win. It’s doubtful, but as parliament (ie con and lab) is being blamed for this shit storm, I think there could be alot of protest votes they would pic up, us alot of Stan he’d leavers wousl but aside party pl politics for 4 years, to aim for they pro EU vote.

Basically write off the next 4 years, to stay in Europe, then bevy time round  Vote in thd party I want to run run the country.

That would be may plan if I wad the lib dems. I don’t even know their position on the EU. But if I wad them I’d drop all beliefs for the shot at making th party relevant again. There is a good chance they would get eight seats to Atleast be in a position to form an alliance, bit this time only take it if you can follow thou on your policy. Unlike Cleg did.

This is thd same policy I think Labour should if dine last time round. Though thd Lib dems have noting to lose by doing this. And all to gain.

Go all in in remaining in  EU, and some lose stability and taking stock of the nation BS that wouldbe what I’d run on. I’d talk about abit how the last government had negated the nations busines for two years while focusing on a failed EU exit, etc.. I’d finf thd biggest flaws and tlak about steaming the leakz, and stabalising trade links across Europe and stability. And if highlight the rules in imagrants always being allowed to be sent home after 3 months but both sides of government had always ignored this and say (don’t need to do) that they would implent a plan to fix this etc…

Thr last one alone would fire up some protest votes,

Wetherthr lib dems deliver this or not is irrelevant. That is they way I’d go. You can fall back to norms once you get some seats back, while trying to hold them.

I’d vote for them over ether Labour or tory atm. Both seem clueless, so what do I have to lose, rom picking a joker card?

[Wheels-Of-Fire]

How about starting a peoples leave party Duke ?

They could focus on not giving the peoples money away to the EU, not allowing EU migrant workers to under cut working class British workers and introducing selective subsidies to support British industry at will. Just a thought but thats not the liberals ?

[The Duke]

Given we have a minimum wage, there is no need to “combat undercutting wages” .

Also if we looked at our selves as EU citizens instead of something different. Adding mainland money to the collective to help less privalidged parts of th EU doesn’t seem that much of an issue to me.

Maybe fight for a more transparent system  so we can see how the innerworking work, then the memberstates could lean of the government if they don’t like the process.

Id also want to stimulant the movement of people also. Maybe by introducing a minimum wage across the whole of the memberstates. Making it easier for the proorest of peoples a better chance at relocating if local factories (for example) close.

It would of been nice in the 80s when the majority of pits closed if their was an easier path out of dead villages for example

You have just stimulated some interesting ideas. I’d be all for tighter integration.,we need to stop the inward view, and thinking Britain is better. Its not. We should be thinking as people as a whole. As the current model and direction of right leaning borders and the capalist model doesn’t scale for our inevitable future of 11billion people, and never ending automation and AI.

At some point, veryclose, probanly within 50 years, we won’t have work for all to do, so inevitably we’ll have a class of non workers. Under the current system, it won’t work. Putting borders up only makes it worse.

[Wheels-Of-Fire]

We will have a class of non workers in the UK at some point in the future Duke. We are increaecingly moving to a point where you have to be smarter than average to earn a living in developed countries. Not everybody  is so we as club GB need to be able to support that kind of society. Giving our money away and importing the the down and outs of the world will not help.

[The Duke]

I disagree. But I don’t look at the world as an us and them. We are an ‘all’ . As long as we have “clubs” we have friction.

Either way the world is changing and current economic thinking won’t work as it won’t scale.

We need a more socalist approach, less focus on stock price and riches, less for us on little clubs and the power within them. As that is only good for the few and not the many. We need a complete change in pholisophy and economic thinking. As jobs come less scarce we’ll need to work cos we want to, but for much less time. A 3 day week for istance with a set sallery. But that is impossible to do in a capalist set up.

It’s the impossible question at this moment. But the one thing I do know is putting up more walls is counterproductive. And ultimately dangerous.

People of the world are already mad, as things get worse nations will get mad. Then where do we go? Only one way. That is why we need interconectivity, on a larger scale than just the EU.

The old conspiracy theories of one world governmemt, always focused on bad people holding power over all. Which I subscribe to, however for the sake of resource and food distribution I think it’s inevitable. We’ll only get there via war, that’s a given, as no one wants to give up power. That’s human nature. But I’d like the uk not to be a part of the problem. I’d like our leaders to be part of trh solution. Or at the least try and be part of it. At least make an effort.

By leaving the EU, we are taking a backwards step if you take the long term view.

For peace in the future, we need more nations to come together. Not spread apart. I’d be happy to stick in the EU, pull-in mre nations including Russia and their BRICS allies. Once that’s done we would have a big enough alliance the rest of the world would need to fall in line.

I’d see America and Saudi pulling the middle east into its own little alliance, but hopefully sense would see through.

It’s a pipe dream, and somthing I can’t see happening in my time (pronanly 30 years left of lucky), but that will be about the time when major issues will be showing, of we are still on our current path. Which I can’t see why we won’t be.

So I don’t care about the uk that much, it’s a tiny player in this grand scheme of things. That’s part of the reason we shouldnt be going it alone. As our children and grandchildren will pay the price, probably the ultimate price.

So I don’t care about people being put out cos a polish or Indian guy has arrived in my street. I say welcome. It his globe as much as its mine. Any this is the attitude we all need to adopt. No just the uk but the world over.

I sound like a friggin hippy now. Irl I’m a miserable tw*t, I like it that way, bit I still fear for my children’s future. And I’d rather they was free to travel and work anywhere on the globe (the EU is a good start), than be imprisoned on this small lump of damp rock.

If we all was under on government, just think how much time energy and money wousl be saved on military things alone. That effort gould go into progressing GM foods, curing illnesses, and figuring out a new ecominoc model that will work for a population of 11bn with work for probably 5-8b. That’s alot of houses with zero income. A good war could solve the number issues, maybe cull a few billion, then we just carry on. Hardly a good strategy .

[Ed P]

We have a class of non-working people at this time Graham but it isn’t in the areas of high immigration. Think Welsh Valleys, the North, Scotland and Cornwall. The areas with the greatest proportion of immigrants are in other areas London, South East and Midlands. All irrefutable facts which you can Google.

I do however agree with your point on changes causing joblessness – self-serve check-out eliminates five shop assistants per machine, and these are people without the skills to easily move to other jobs.

[Wheels-Of-Fire]

Oh come on. The only way we can protect our people is to have more money or might than thoughs who wish to rob us.

[Wheels-Of-Fire]

Giving stuff away because it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling has seriouse consiquences . They will hate you if you just give without asking for anything in return because they see it as colonial condesending and they will hate you if you give less because you are over privilaged b stards.

[Wheels-Of-Fire]

In short we keep our money until they acknowlage they are charity case like the EU is.

[Ed P]

Wheels-Of-Fire wrote:

Oh come on. The only way we can protect our people is to have more money or might than thoughs who wish to rob us.

On that basis Brexit was a brilliant move to shoot ourselves in the foot. It has already cost us billions and the way companies are leaving (Sony today) it will cost us even more.

I’m afraid I totally and utterly disagree with your comments. I think I might have had more respect had you at least addressed your complete blind spot when anyone gives you facts that counter your (sorry, the Moggites/Daily Wail) view of a Hard Brexit.

“Brexit is costing the UK £500 million a week – or £26 billion per annum, according to research by the Centre for European Reform.

The UK economy is 2.5 percent smaller than it would be if the UK had voted to remain in the European Union, the thinktank said.

The cost of Brexit is growing, despite Brexiteers promising a dividend of £350m a week for leaving the EU – a campaign promise the Leave side famously declared on a Vote Leave bus. — Daily Express”

[Wheels-Of-Fire]

Short term cost Ed, and even then just maybe. Get out and see what happens. I cant see big buisness pulling out of what could be the singapour Of europe.

[Wheels-Of-Fire]

Course the EU would have to come back with a begging bowl if it works out the way I think it will but thats what i voted for in the first place. THEY ARE SKINT !

[Ed P]

I have lived in Singapore for ten years and I’ll tell you this _ Britain is no Singapore.

You have to start at the top and our Government is corrupt and amateur in comparison with that of Singapore. They invest in people and technology. They have an education system that is ranked highest in the world (the UK ranks 22nd). They don’t give political honours to time servers but those who do something for their country, they publicly Press-pillory any MP, or Civil Servant caught taking bribes pr illegally stashing cash overseas – it is squeaky clean unlike the UK.

It is also very socialist albeit elitist

[The Duke]

We have talked about the way Singapore is ran, and it’s very much in line with how I’d like ours to go.

The thing I dislike the most about leaving the EU is thst then our shambles has no oversite. I’d happily give away Westminster.

Before this brexit mess, I thought that in a tounge n cheek way, now I actully wouldn’t bother me.

They have shown over the last 2 years what a shambles they are. 2 year zero plan, with no direction. WTF are we paying them for. The EU have some all they need to, they haven’t treated us bad, they have been straight in this legal seperation, and even started planning and putting in the infostuture for a UKless EU.

What have we done, give 14m to a port with no boats, and lined up a few trucks in a car park to simulate a traffic jam.

They No, we are the joke of the world atm.

[Author]

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