Brexit now = CETA +/-?

[The VFM Addict]

It doesn’t help now re Brexit but I would be very interested to hear folk’s views as regards John Major’s culpability for where we are today.    To get things started my thoughts are as follows.

Maastricht was the point of fundamental change from trading bloc to full scale political block.   As I see it that was the point at which a referendum was vital.   Instead Major strong-armed ratification through Parliament never resolving the two sides of his party; nor the two different opinions that would equally have existed in the country if asked.

Had there been a referendum at that time then extracting ourselves from the bloc, if that was the decision of the people, would have been a hundred or perhaps even a thousand times easier than trying to do it a quarter of a century later.   Moreover, we probably would have been able to retain the trading benefits; which are what we had already signed up to and been part of at that time.   On the flipside if we had, as a people, agreed to be part of the EU then it would have been the will of the people, one might say that there would have been the informed consent of the people to the political as well as the trading union that would be the EU.

To me the true culprit for all that has happened is not Cameron for calling a referendum but Major for not calling one re Maastricht.   Simply putting a sticking plaster on an infected wound rather than cleansing it will almost always result in sepsis or gangrene.   My firm belief it that Major’s unwillingness or cowardice in not purging the infection one way or the other before ratifying Maastricht is the true cause of why we are where we are today.    He committed us to political union without the consent of the people; and the changes that Maastricht  brought about were so fundamental that the peoples consent one way or the other was vital.

Discuss.

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[Wheels-Of-Fire]

Well actually VFM i’m rather glad that Major didn’t call for a vote back then. You see we would have been told that  it was just another minor tweek to the treaty and that this vote thing was just a legal formality. The nation would have fallen for it too. Voting in then would have denied us the vote we just had.

[The VFM Addict]

Wheels-Of-Fire wrote:

Well actually VFM i’m rather glad that Major didn’t call for a vote back then. You see we would have been told that it was just another minor tweek to the treaty and that this vote thing was just a legal formality. The nation would have fallen for it too. Voting in then would have denied us the vote we just had.

I’m not sure that that is what would have happened.  The Eurosceptic wing of the Tory party was just anti-EU then as now and a referendum campaign back then would have been fought as hard as it was in 2016.    It was only that there had just been a GE that the Tories had just scraped through which gave Major the chance to threaten the Eurosceptics with making the Maastricht vote a vote of confidence suppressing them and strong-arming them into supporting the ratification.    But as always if one suppresses a problem rather than addressing it then sure as hell it will blow open again sooner or later; after all it didn’t go away, did it?

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On a slightly different issue a lot of folks have said around the Net that there has been biased and manipulative broadcasting by the BBC since Brexit favouring the Remain side.   I had never fully subscribed to that opinion myself.   However, today I almost puked into my breakfast cereal when I read a BBC News page of a couple of days ago but which I had missed.    Now I would say YES the BBC is being manipulative.    It held Dominic Grieve to be a, I quote, “Tory soft Brexiteer”.    As if him and his gang are Brexiteers (!!!).    So now DG is being forwarded by the BBC as a Brexiteer who is the nice cosy face of soft Brexit.    For heavens sake he is as rabid a Remainer as Ken Clarke and Anna Soubry.    I think even the Remainers in this thread would have to agree that describing DG as a “Tory soft Brexiteer” is quite plainly manipulative reporting.  ?

 

 

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[Wheels-Of-Fire]

Well like you say VFM, the Euro sceptic Tories had been suppressed. The only view on offer would have been the Government line. We would have got the same leaflet we got this time too. Remember there was no internet so the treaty would have gone largely unread by the voting public. People trusted the BBC for their neutrality more back then and we all know their opinion on the subject. We had also not yet seen the true extent of the EU’s ambitions.

I think I can be pretty sure what the result of a vote would have been. So thank you Mr Major. You bungled us out.

[Ed P]

The only ones I have known to show any bias are the comedians who have hated Brexit in all its forms from the very beginning Not too surprising really given that most comedians are University Graduates..

More than balancing that possible bias, the popular press has been rabidly anti-EU from the start , with the right wing Tory Press of the Daily Wail etc leading the charge.

[Dave Rice]

There is only bias if it’s the opposite way to which you want.

[Wheels-Of-Fire]

The thing is Ed, people have to go out of their way to buy the paper of their choice. We are forced to pay a ring fenced TV tax for the BBC and I do NOT agree with their views.

 

[Ed P]

BBC News has a nightly audience of 5.3 million viewers, the Daily Wail has a claimed audience of 18.5 million (print+on-line), by extrapolation from print figures the other right-wing Tory rags probably have an additional 4 million.

If you do not agree with the Beebs views there are numerous other news channels to pick. Try Sky News for a change, and RT for balance!

[Wheels-Of-Fire]

As it happens the latest PAMCo figures are out today Ed. I will leave you to look them up yourself but the Sun is now top in both print and online with the Mail a close second.

[The Duke]

I thought the Scum has been in 1stvplace for years?

I x just don’t buy any of the papers. I’ve not since the house  before this one, which must be about 2003. I use to lie the star on a Friday. For the motormouth page. While I was away this year the old couple on the next villa on Spain, would leave there used paper on out table each morning. Motormouth is still going, but it want worth my effort reading it. It was pretty poo and the format has changed. May be a new bloke writing it.

I wouldn’t want to get my actual news out of one.

[Ed P]

Wheels-Of-Fire wrote:

As it happens the latest PAMCo figures are out today Ed. I will leave you to look them up yourself but the Sun is now top in both print and online with the Mail a close second.

OK as both were BELEAVE rags, those numbers make up for my forgetting to include the Beeb on-line audience of 19.5mm. I have not bothered to change my earlier numbers as I did not know how to translate monthly readership into daily ones!

[The VFM Addict]

So we all agree with the Beeb then.  Dominic Grieve is a “Tory soft Brexiteer”……………..ROFL    What next?    Farage is an “Independent soft Remainer”…………….?

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[Dave Rice]

The Mail is of course renowned for the accuracy of it’s reporting ?

[Ed P]

Dave Rice wrote:

The Mail is of course renowned for the accuracy of it’s unbiased reporting

Corrected ?

[The VFM Addict]

I think you both miss the point (Dave and Ed).   Do you buy the Daily Mail?   Are you legally obliged to buy the Daily Mail if you want to read the Independent or Guardian?    No, of course you are not.   The Beeb is in an entirely different position from any newspaper, isn’t it?   Because even if we want to watch alternative live TV, such as ITV, Channel 4 or Channel 5 one must ‘buy’ the Beeb (i.e. pay the licence fee).    It is this obligation to purchase which inherently demands of the Beeb unbiased reporting.     Given your views, how would you feel if you were legally obliged to buy the Daily Mail every day because if you didn’t you could not read any other newspaper?    So what I mean?

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[The Duke]

I’ve never found the BBC to be unbiased. They always have an angle.

[Wheels-Of-Fire]

It should be a triangle. Wouldn’t trust them with anything else ?

[Dave Rice]

Do you watch every program on the BBC? Do you not have the choice to watch anything you want, or not? There is no law that says you have to watch the BBC. Would it be OK for ITV to show bias just because they make money from adverts? Is it OK for publicly funded Channel 4 to show bias?

Every single party when in power complains of bias from the BBC. Look for something and you’ll find it. My aunty complained that a Question Time audience was biased, I thought it was full of shouty angry Brexiteers who didn’t actually want to listen to anything other than their own point of view.

You like polls, so here’s one Is the BBC biased?

The same %age thought that the BBC had a strong right wing bias as a left wing bias. The most telling part is this: “Perhaps the most striking finding from our poll is the extent to which views on each of the broadcasters’ coverage is largely explained through the lens of respondent’s own ideological self-placement.” Which is exactly what I’m saying, you’re looking for something and so of course you’ll find it.

[The VFM Addict]

What you are talking about, Dave, is Confirmation Bias (sometimes call MySide Bias) where one is only receptive to evidence which supports one’s own position or preconceptions and is blinded to all that contradicts it.      Its is one of the known subconscious cognitive biases and by chance I am about to challenge two judges concerning errors of law by them; which the evidence compellingly suggests both erred due to preconceptions that in reality were contradicted by the evidence they were considering.

Returning to the Beeb, you again missed the point.   Correct I could simply not read the Beeb news pages.   But why should I given that I have been forced to ‘buy’ them.    I say again if the UK is forced to buy the Beeb then there is inherently an obligation not to be biased.    Like I said earlier, do you hold that Dominic Grieve is a “Tory soft Brexiteer”?

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[The VFM Addict]

Brussels has shafted Gove’s reason for backing the Chequers Deal (i.e. that it could be varied in future).   Let’s see of he has any danglers and walks.    But perhaps more importantly could May ever agree to shacking all future PM’s?     I suspect she too knows that would be a bridge too far.    Perhaps even Dominic Grieve who has always held that he is all about maintaining the sovereignty of Parliament may baulk also.    Because how could any PM ever agree to shackle the sovereignty of all future Parliaments?    This all gets more interesting by the day.   It might be, albeit remotely, that this new EU position is an affront that will sway even a significant number of Remainers to say enough is enough and finally boot the EU into touch.

Those who like conspiracy theories may wonder if Gove’s comments were lodged on Marr with the specific purpose of provoking such a response from the EU.    Because sure as hell it gives May an ‘out’ re Chequers.

 

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

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