Brexit now = CETA +/-?

[Dave Rice]

Big news, politicians don’t the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Some of them even plaster their lies on the side of buses. A whole load of leading Brexiteers defended the Lords one day, then demanded their abolition when they voted the wrong way. The whole place is a cesspit of hypocrisy, lies and self interest. Shall we get the list out of Brexit MPs whose constituency voted remain? Like we do when it’s the other way around? Kate Hoey is one of them and she wonders why they want her deselected.

Anyway, Theresa May has categorically ruled it out so we know the Peoples Vote will happen.

[The VFM Addict]

I think you missed the point.  Of course politicians lie, its what they do for a living.   The point was that a second vote will change very little because if politicians won’t honour the first result then there are no grounds for believing they would honour a second.  And before you accuse me of being one-sided or biased, I will say that such is the case for either and both sides.   It mattered not which side won the war would have gone on.

I do think that the EU parliament gave Leavers a boost yesterday if there was a second ref.  Triggering Article 7 against Hungary, which will take away their voting rights and cease all EU funding for Hungary, is an act of oppression.     To the UK Conservative MEPs’ credit they voted to a man against that triggering along with UKIP, AfD and the Italian right wing MEPs. etc.    If Brexit were reversed, showing that we would never walk then the EU would be even more likely to trigger it re us if we ever did not do what they wanted.   It is increasingly likely that Hungary will follow us out of the door.

 

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[Dave Rice]

Then what you’re saying is that the public can never change it’s mind. If the 2nd result was different from the 1st why would it be less valid? After all Farage was going to keep going if the result had been as close but the other way around and all the rest would have too. More hypocrisy I feel.

You really do have an over active imagination when it comes to the EU. When the member of an organisation violates the rules of that organisation then surely there are consequences. And nothing has happened to Hungary yet, it just opens the door to sanctions. Those sanctions have to a unanimous vote and that is unlikely. Poland will probably block them although I doubt we will. May be you agree with what Orban is up to?

[The Duke]

I’m amazed this brexit lark has been allowed to go on this long. I’m sure it will be over soon enough.

[The VFM Addict]

@ ricedg

I agree with you 100% that democracy requires that the electorate can change their minds.   The question is of course how long between each polling of opinion?

Plainly the electorate could change its mind re an elected Government the month after a GE.     It would be preposterous to have another GE monthly if the electorate changed its mind.    Therefore there have to be defined Terms of office.

It was made thoroughly clear to the electorate that the EU referendum was a ‘once in a generation’ vote.   Cameron and others stressed such repeatedly.   No-one was in any doubt about that.   And you know as well as I do that if Remain had won then that ‘Term’ would have been stuck to; with no second vote to see if the electorate had changed its mind sooner.

Unless one wants to decent into the anarchy of giving the public universally the right to change its mind soon after all decisions, such as a GE’s, then one has to allow each verdict to runs its course before re-polling.     Without such one does not reinforce democracy, quite the reverse, one makes a mockery of it.   Why can’t you see that?

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[Dave Rice]

Politicians call GE not the voters, even now with the fixed term act as we’ve already seen. In 1974 we had two GEs, Feb and Oct and there are plenty of examples of less than 2 years so the time frame doesn’t seem to be an issue.

If there is a peoples vote – which is not a second referendum – it will be called by politicians for their own purposes, just like the first one was. This whole mess is down to Conservative party infighting and that infighting will shape what’s to come not “the will of the people”. I don’t think they give a flying fig what you think never mind me. The only thing that seems to scare them is the thought of someone else being in power – that is always the threat. Vote my way or I’ll bring you down. Bring me down and it’s GE time and Corbyn will be in. And so it goes on and on.

I don’t believe a second peoples vote (call it what you like, I don’t personally care) would do anything more than stir up the already harmful splits in the country. I’m not sure we could all take the lies from all sides again, but at least we are all more informed than the first time. It’s too late to stop what’s going to happen, whatever that is, but a GE soon after would give the country the chance to reverse, mitigate or strengthen that approach.

I’ve never believed in referendums, we are a representative democracy and the MPs should do their job. I also don’t get het up when an MP decides to go against the perceived wishes of their constituency. I only mentioned it here to highlight the hypocrisy as it is usually aimed at Remain Labour MPs and no-one else. Once they are in you have to trust them to see “the bigger picture” and of course it will be slanted by their beliefs.

It’s one reason I’m not all fired up about “sovereignty”. All the institutions everywhere are self serving and despite what anyone says, very hard to get rid of. It’s usually a temporary respite, even the Hamiltons came back stronger. I believe that a stronger European block is required for many reasons and I’m quite happy for a European forum to shape that with local Parliaments customising it. I am quite happy with the democratic processes involved, no model is perfect of course. I believe we are better together, to borrow from another referendum slogan, despite it not being perfection. The Pros outweigh the Cons for me.

It’s funny how many Brexiteers are also pro union. You would have thought the arguments for UK independence from Europe would equally apply to Scotland?

[JayCeeDee]

The problem with a Peoples Vote/Second referendum/whatever you wish to call it, is the same as the first one. Nobody took time to think it through. Cameron thought he was untouchable, threw his toys out the pram and said take my line or I’m leaving. He thought it would be a done deal and we would be scared of losing him/them.

No-one bothered to frame the questions or wonder about permutations and ramifications. It was – to quote the favoured parlance – binary. Yes/No, In/Out, Stay/Leave. I’ve said it before, it should have been 20 Questions time instead of  2. What do you like about Europe, is it a,b,c… – what do you dislike about Europe, – is it x,y,z. That way those doing the negotiations would have known which aspects to hold the line on in talks, and which could be bartered for position on the favoured aspects. Common sense negotiation, as has existed for centuries across most aspects and levels, of life and work.

It’s what I did as a Union Rep in BT when the bosses wanted to introduce something new. You would know your ‘sacrificial lambs’ from talking to the staff and also your ‘sacred cows’!! You would compromise and ease up on one and firm up on the other. It’s the same thing when kids ask parents for more pocket money – the parents always know what they want the kids to do more of and barter accordingly.

On a side note I was also a Health and Safety rep and it was a joy to “negotiate” with the bosses because it wasn’t negotiation, I had a big H&S legislative sledgehammer to wield. That seems to be the position the EU holds currently – they don’t really need to negotiate as such. Us, on the other hand, we have to negotiate, resolve and then get the result past the Commons first, the Lords next, the EU next and then the 28 states have to ratify the final outcome. That’s a bit one-sided.

Was watching Question Time last night and Theo Paphitis was on. He was a very interesting listen.

Edited for flow and spelling.

[Ed P]

Ideally we should have another referendum/election when the politicians are found to have lied over their manifesto promises.For example,  Cleggs gutless behaviour on his manifesto promises should have triggered a new election.

As lies, vested interests and politicians are inseparable, we are unlikely ever to get this as law, but I can always dream.

[JayCeeDee]

Ed P wrote:

Ideally we should have another referendum/election when the politicians are found to have lied over their manifesto promises.

Isn’t that the very definition of perpetual motion with our lot over the last forty-odd years that I know of??!!

[The Duke]

Save you are so bang on, something I said before the ref, and many times since. We have a GE to pick the guys to make such huge decisions for us.

The public as a whole is ignirate to the details of a brexit, they should never of been near the decision. We should of built some type leaving council, and a staying party that could run through all the aspects debate it off each other, and spent 10 years discussing the major issues, so they would at least have some form of frame work to work with IF it wad decided to leave. Which I doent think any individual forum would of come to a leave decision..

[PlaneMan]

A general election is pointless. The PM doesn’t have any real power, it’s the longstanding civil servants that do.

They will let a a few things slip through, to keep the PM happy, and get what they really want. As JCD mentioned above in his negotiation post.

The PM, POTUS, et all are just symbols of an alleged democracy. That’s it.

 

[Bob Williams]

Am amazed by the length of this thread. Opposing viewpoints are being expressed, some of which have a shaky foundation not in complete agreement with actual facts.

I find myself mostly in agreement with Dave’s reasoned arguments, which have a factual basis.

Yes, I voted Remain, but my attitude to politicians is coloured by my MP, who took over the position by being voted in as a Cameron “babe” and has quickly become a local media star, appearing in local outlets pictured baby kissing, supporting local agriculture, etc. Try to find her at published time of Surgeries in Horncastle or Louth? Impossible! But I remember her first days, when all the Lincolnshire roads had “VOTE LEAVE!” posters everywhere, which she completely ignored and advised her constituents to vote Remain. That was not taking in the message I thought, and when the vote went against her, she came to her opportunistic, ambitious senses and decided to change horses. She is now a May favourite and is a rising star, considered as an eventual Tory leader. Surely she will go far in the Tory Party, with the number of different faces she presents to the public?

A democratic vote, once taken and acted upon, cannot be changed, whoever decides to disagree with it. That is a cornerstone of all our centuries of struggle to arrive at an imperfect but currently unimprovable system. The Tory Party is set upon battering itself into insensibility by infighting, disregarding the fact that they may be handing the keys to No.10, to a Deeply Red party which may eventually complete the process of bankrupting our nation.

We live in interesting times.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[JayCeeDee]

Bob Williams wrote:

Am amazed by the length of this thread. Opposing viewpoints are being expressed, some of which have a shaky foundation not in complete agreement with actual facts.

It has gone on for some time, which is due to the fact that opposing POV have been expressed and countered, but ( mostly ) civilly, which is a joy. That also keeps people’s interest.

Everybody inherently has a different take on events and situations, due to differing circumstances, upbringing, geography and other demographics.

The main reason that it has gone on for so long is down to the continually evolving situation, not a day goes by without press/news coverage of someone in the middle of it all stating the latest version, perception, or words of ( supposed ) wisdom.

Add to that a cast of interesting/scary characters on both sides ( UK and EU ) it’s better than ………( insert favourite soap.)

It has hugely serious ramifications, but thankfully it can still be discussed civilly.????

[Dave Rice]

“which may eventually complete the process of bankrupting our nation.”

Sadly Bob I have to agree with you. The “fiscally responsible” party is about to embark on the most fiscally irresponsible act possible and even they admit it, well the rational arm anyway. They are also very adept at spreading the wealth that is there to as few people as possible. It’s the Tory councils in the West Country that seem to be suffering the most. They kept council tax low in accordance with the glorious leaders dictats (to get the glorious leader re-elected) only to find their act of support cruelly backfire when not reciprocated.

We have been squeezed until the pips squeak. My kids have made the most of whats in front of them and worked hard to get the grades to go to University and then make the most of it. They have racked up huge debts and have no chance of buying a property. We have both worked damn hard, paid all our taxes and paid off the mortgage early only to face losing it all in 20 years time when we succumb to old age. Feck that, when the Mrs retires we’re going to do the bucket list in 1st Class style while we have the chance as all we’ll be leaving it to is the state, not the kids.

And none of that is the fault of the EU, it’s 100% Westminster. Plan past their next election? Pah! But make that half way to because after that it’s campaigning. Very few actually care about what’s good for the nation or even their constituency (apart from the part that selects them).

However you can reverse that when it comes to spending on London. Crossrail isn’t here yet and it’s Crossrail 2. We had the electrification to Bristol and Bath cancelled as it’s too expensive. Bristol being a Labour stronghold and Bath a Liberal one I’m sure had no influence on that decision. But it’a full steam ahead through the most awkward bit – the Severn and Patchway Tunnels had to be dropped – because they’re scared stiff of Cardiff.

Angry of the Shires ?

[Wheels-Of-Fire]

Your council could always follow the lead of mine Dave, if they want more government money. Brent council thought they had this trick down to a fine art after 60 years of practice.

What you do is just waste your money so that it runs out 1 month before the end of the financial period. What you must avoid at all costs though is  making anything better. Now you can go to the government next time and say “We are still skint, we are still c**p, give us more cash”

Brent came unstuck a couple of years ago though. Because of the regeneration around Wembley stadium there was going to be too much money coming in. Que a huge public works splurge. They actually resurfaced all the roads around my Mum’s again after only 4 years. It took 30 years to get it fixed the first time !

[Richard]

Wow, that is a name that I had largely forgotten about since I was last in that area, Brent, my goodness.

I see it is quite a big area wrapping up many other names; Wembley was not the top area back in the late 60’s/early 70’s though the area round Willesden Green is far cleaner and greener on Google than I ever remember it being in the flesh. The bones of many of the buildings I remember are still there, but the whole nature of the place, the shops and the style of the place evokes no echoes in my mind. I guess I did not belong there nearly 50 years ago and I don’t now. Mind you, I have no plans to return there, there would be no reason for me to even visit.

I heard Dave’s lament about today. Back then I faced the prospect of endless quest and no easy way to buy a house and settle. I had to make my own luck and, when an overseas job came up, I grabbed my shovel and dug my escape tunnel to overseas shores. Now, I don’t really belong anywhere; I am a tax paying pensioner alien, destined to remain as such till the sands of my time run out.

[Bob Williams]

Dave most of your post has echoes around here, especially in regard to an almost permanently Tory County and District Council, and the MP always returned as a Tory. LCC and ELDC were ‘requested‘ to keep CT low and they did. The repercussions came when the Cuts hit. There was once an organisation called “Supporting People” which really did give proper support services to the elderly and Social Housing organisations. It was funded by central gov and allowed Social landlords to provide wardens, funds to let us organise Residents Associations, Outings with a minibus, Christmas Dinners and Parties. It kept all local Sheltered Housing in contact and gave interests to many old people who are now housebound. Landlords no longer had funding to run these services, Sheltered Housing is gradually draining away. Adult Social Care and Youth Services died within weeks. I alternated annually with my recently-deceased mate to be Chair and Vice Chair of our Residents Association. It collapsed when we could no longer support it with our own funding and as the Treasurer and secretary both resigned due to ill health. All of those life-sustaining activities disappeared and people became isolated.

It is to the great credit of LCC that they have become more politically mixed and have set about determined to redress this. CT has had to rise, but the money is being used sensibly. Adult Social care is provided by contractors, who have to pass strict guidelines and sign documents concerning their staff, pay and financial affairs, with penalties for failure to provide decent services. There are several tenants around me who receive the benefits of this in Carers. We are not in the position of some who use Benefits to help, but we have a cleaner and a gardener who we employ and carry out very good work. It seems that the future of Youth and Adult Social Care will now be provided by Private Contract, but if you have worked and saved all your life, hard luck mate, you pay for it from your own pocket.

I think almost the whole of the country outside London and the South East, is appalled and affronted by the money spent on that area. Our infrastructure in the East: East Yorks, Lincs in particular, is dreadfully short of what it should be. We have massive businesses building up along the Humber and the ports are expanding, freight trucks constantly pounding our totally inadequate roads on their way north and south. Our railways are still waiting for electrification and new rolling stock, the service is far short of what it should be. To look at the Crossrail and other services being given to London, at such huge, expanding cost, is to wonder why the rest of us is ignored by the government.

Scottish Independence? Can we join you, Nicola Sturgeon??

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Wheels-Of-Fire]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury,_London

 

I was mostly talking about Sudbury and Wembley rather than the Stadium Richard. Have a look above.

[Richard]

I never went to the stadium, but the area around it and running back in towards London was ugly dire. I worked in an office near Kilburn Station, one in South Harrow, Edgware and Watford for about 6 years. I did some long ‘shifts’ at times. Monday through Friday with only a break for a wash and shave during some of the then issues. I also went up to Vauxhall from time to time and that was a really rum location. Very near to the regional crime squad building, an apt location of a business like that, hot a cold running crime at the time.

As I said Brent covers a very wide area, some were my then stomping grounds, I lived close to the job as it made travel easy though the pubs with bolted down furniture did no inspire confidence, I only ever went to pubs like that once.

[Wheels-Of-Fire]

You picked some right places to visit there Richard !

Watford is about the best but its actually in Hertfordshire. Edgeware wasnt bad then but its gone much the same as Wembley central now.

I don’t mind the odd spit and sawdust pub but the Vauxhall Tavern was too rough for me even during the day !

 

 

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