Brexit now = CETA +/-?

[Spedley]

I’m not sure what you mean by where is the EU heading?  I don’t see a problem with the voting system.  Are you trying to imply that it is corrupt or does not represent all parties fairly?  Who is gaining from this and how do they orchestrate it?  To what ends are they subverting the real direction of Europe?  Why don’t we have the same direction as Germany and France?
I see lots of statements and questions (first paragraph) you make that are open ended with no real answer and therefore can never be answered.
We won’t get everything we want, nobody expects to.  Scotland doesn’t get what it wants and London still has to pay taxes for things around the rest of the country it won’t use.  That is what being a part of the whole is about.

All those questions you have (2nd para) will be negotiated amongst the EU, us included.  I doubt it but we may have to join the Euro … so what?  An EU army sounds great to me, I’d much rather have a single Trident system shared between all EU states it would save us hundreds of billions  and we’d be no worse off.
Staying in the EU isn’t a leap in the dark, it is one step at a time.  WE are in the EU and we are taking the steps jointly, it is not something being done to us.
Ending Brexit doesn’t make us week, it means we have changed our minds.  We don’t have to prove our strength to Europe, our friends don’t judge us by it.

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[Dave Rice]

I see little point in replying, you will just dismiss any answer, but let’s try.

I’d much rather be paid in Euros than Sterling and I’m sure that will be true for the foreseeable future . No the drop in sterling after the vote hasn’t been recovered, that’s just fake news, it’s still 13%+ down. January 2002 we got 1.6 Euros to the pound, 23rd June 2016 1.3, today 1.13.

Compulsory joining the Euro is as much fake news as the Turkey migrants scare mongering. It’s more making it up to suit the ideology.

Let me ask you just where are the Germans, French and “Eastern Europeans” heading? You must know as they aren’t the same as “ours”. At the same time you can clarify just what “our” interests are as you must know that too to make to make the comparison. Also Clarify who the “Eastern European” Countries are? Oh and who the “we” in “our interests” are.

What control do we have over the Westminster train? What will our future rules be? You can’t even tell me whether the next Government will be Tory, Labour or some alliance of who knows what. You couldn’t have predicted where we are now at the time of the last GE never mind the one before that so forget that crystal ball BS about who will be doing what and when and how.

There are many anti EU sentiments appearing all over Europe, but I don’t believe any of those countries want to see the end of the EU as much as they want to change it’s direction. That’s politics. What we are embarking on is self harm, or cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[Bob Williams]

John Major did not take us into Europe, that was Maggie Thatcher, who gave us a vote to join a Common Market.

Major refused to hold a UK referendum on the Maastricht  Treaty, or the TEU (Treaty on European Union)

Only France, Denmark and Eire held referendums (referendae?)  because their constitutions required this. Denmark rejected the TEU by a margin of 50.7% to 49.3%: does that result sound familiar? The Danes were granted 4 opt outs in a second referendum and that was accepted by Denmark. The opt outs keep the Krone, give priority of Danish citizenship over EU status, keeps Denmark out of the Western European Union Defence policy, giving them independence in Defence. They were initially independent in Justice and Home Affairs, but have taken the decision since to participate, with provisos.

The TEU referendum in France, resulted in a very narrow 50.8% vote in favour. Yes, you read that correctly. 50.8%.

Eire, a big supporter of the EU and a big recipient of its benefits, voted 69.1% in favour. It’s interesting to note that, had Eire followed Denmark’s first vote, Maastricht may have been killed off.

The Netherlands government told their own electorate that, as they held the Presidency of the Council of the European Union at the time of the vote, and the vote was held within their borders, they needed no referendum. I have Dutch friends who have informed me that this remains a source of disquiet and unrest amongst the Netherlands population to this day.

The history of the way European citizens have been led by their own governments, at the direction of Brussels, into making crucial decisions, is a festering swamp of lies and misinformation. And the fact that the EU has managed to sweep their own Audit procedures under the carpet, has been successfully buried. Remember that? The issue still exists, but no mention of it for a few years.

I want out. Now.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Spedley]

I see the statements you make Bob but I don’t see the conclusion.  We’ve done the hard work of the last 40 years and now we are all living very well, peaceful-ish and happy.  But because we were narrowly forced into it we should quit and go back to how we were in the 70s?
It doesn’t make sense.  Are you saying there is nothing good about the EU?

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[Bob Williams]

In a word, yes.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[The VFM Addict]

Bob, it was Heath who gave us the Common Market vote from what I recall not Thatcher.

@ Dave,

Pre the Brexit Ref most experts were saying Sterling was over valued by around 13%.   So it has now corrected.   Not sure that one can put that correction down to Brexit.

I did not say we would be forced to join the Euro rather that such could happen down the road.   ‘Twas the same with my other comments.   I agree about Westminster but we can lead a protest march there if we disagree rather than have to march to Brussels !!!    As for fake news the fake news is to suggest that the EU is somehow the known quantity and Brexit is a leap in the dark.   Both are unknowns but rarely do Remainers admit such.   That was all I was trying to highlight.

As for our interests not being the same as France and Germany that surely must be so or our Economies and Main Industries would be identical which they are not.   The last time I looked wine production was not one our main industries, for example.

As I said earlier we are just back at the primary battle grounds of 2016 again, are we not?    Nothing has changed, passions are the same or perhaps even heightened.   May has a far bigger problem than Major had because its not just a few Eurosceptic MPs she is faced with its close to the entire Tory grassroots.   Even her own constituency association chairman has stuck the boot in and said not one concession more.   And, we all know that the EU will demand more.

How many times must I stress the obvious which is that the ‘war’ within the UK will continue until the core question is factually answered – Will a full Brexit work or not?   The only way that can be factually resolved is, ‘suck it and see’.

Finally, while I do believe there is very little in the EU that is good I would not say there was nothing good.   In rejecting the EU I come fundamentally from the same position as was held by Tony Benn; which was that the EU is most definitely not democratic.  Call me old fashion but I like democracy and agree with Churchill that while democracy isn’t perfect its way ahead of whatever is in second place.   Frankly I don’t think that the EU even gets to that silver medal position.

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[Spedley]

Brexit can’t work, pretty much by definition.  The EU stated that the UK cannot be better out of the EU than in it.  Not in a nasty way but if we have a great time after we leave then it would undermine the EU and it could fall apart.  I’m sure you think that is great but from the EU’s equally valid viewpoint it isn’t.
The EU is between 6 and 10 times the size of the UK so, we WILL lose.

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[The VFM Addict]

Spedley wrote:

Brexit can’t work, pretty much by definition. The EU stated that the UK cannot be better out of the EU than in it. Not in a nasty way but if we have a great time after we leave then it would undermine the EU and it could fall apart. I’m sure you think that is great but from the EU’s equally valid viewpoint it isn’t. The EU is between 6 and 10 times the size of the UK so, we WILL lose.

Errmm…..  I’m sure there were very similar arguments put forward in 1939 and again after Dunkirk.   Oh and because, ‘The EU stated that the UK cannot be better out of the EU than in it’,  it must be right.    Of course the EU even were it right would be talking purely financially.   I tend to value some things above money.   Just as Tony Benn did.

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[Spedley]

I must leave it there as we have no common ground to move forward on.  If it were possible I’d wish you all well on the Brexit ship but alas I am being dragged along with it with no possibility of return.  Fortunately we are not out of the harbour yet so my journey is not yet determined as I really don’t want to have to jump ship – I doubt my wife and 4 kids would come with me! 🙂

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[Wheels-Of-Fire]

The Wiki on the Maastricht treaty is worth a read.

[The VFM Addict]

@ Spedley

I think in a funny sort of way you have highlighted common ground right there.  While I do not share your position on Brexit I can relate to your feeling of being dragged along with something you had not consented to.

Those of us on the other side feel just the same of the period from Maastricht, when the Trading bloc morphed into a political union, to the ref vote in 2016.   Major took us in without us even being given a vote.   So matey, while we have different opinions re Brexit we probably have identical experiences of the feelings of being dragged along with something to which we were steadfastly opposed.    Its a funny old world.

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[Ed P]

Wheels, I’m afraid you are misinformed with respect to the Human Rights Act. Unfortunately thanks to TBLiar it will be difficult/impossible to untangle ourselves from this Act. As you will read in this article it is inextricably tied up with the Eire/UK Good Friday Agreement (GFA). The only way we can opt out of this act (which is NOT the same as the ECJ) is by a separate renegotiation of the GFA.

Much as I dislike many aspects of the Act I doubt that even the most ardent Brexiteer MP would fight to tangle that can of worms into a final Brexit agreement. In fact if you listen carefully, May, BoJo, Rees-Kitty-Litter et al have all refrained from mentioning the Human Rights Act.

[Wheels-Of-Fire]

I though that was what I said Ed. We had an opt out but Mr Blah signed us up as one of his first acts. I also made a point of saying that the ECJ is not the same as the Human Rights Act but although they do enforce it. Mr Cameron proposed a British bill of rights we could work to instead but the EU were having none of it.

Why oh why is our Supreme court not Supreme enough by the way ?

[Wheels-Of-Fire]

I though that was what I said Ed. We had an opt out but Mr Blah signed us up as one of his first acts. I also made a point of saying that the ECJ is not the same as the Human Rights Act  although they do enforce it. Mr Cameron proposed a British bill of rights we could work to instead but the EU were having none of it.

Why oh why is our Supreme court not Supreme enough by the way ?

[Wheels-Of-Fire]

I Read your link Ed and the EU’s negotiating guidlines and what they both seem to state is that the British are evil and can’t be trusted with human rights. We must be supervised by a higher power at all times.

[Ed P]

As we both agree, the ones to blame for the misrights Act are TBLiar and his Human Rights Specialist lawyer wife.

I’m sorry that I misread your posts, I did not realise or even dream that you were advocating tearing up the Good Friday Agreement, or even renegotiating it. If so, you are certainly happy to take some really big risks with the population of Ireland (north and south) as well as mainland UK.

[D-Dan]

I don’t think anyone advocates a return to the atrocities in Ireland, but it’s certainly a conundrum. More so, since TM paid £1Bn of taxpayers money on DUP votes.

EDIT: If Sinn Fein didn’t wilfully not attend Parliament, that would be £1Bn wasted, since the gain for her and her corrupt Gvt wouldn’t even be realised.

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[Wheels-Of-Fire]

I am not as interested in the good friday agreement as you are Ed but I am not proposing it changes one bit. Everything can remain as is with the exception being that we will have to be trusted to keep our word once we are not bound by the human rights act.

[D-Dan]

I have to add, if Sinn Fein participated, TMs cash for votes would work out at £333M per vote, of our money. Meanwhile, the pay rise for doctors, nurses, police, fire brigade etc. has to be found from efficiency savings. This Government is not fit to run a Sunday club, let alone Brexit.

Arch Linux, on a Ryzen 7 1800X, 32 GB, 5 (yes -5) HDs inc 5 SSDs, 4 RPi 3Bs + 1 RPi 4B - one as an NFS server with two more drives, PiHole (shut yours), Plex server, cloud server, and other random Pi stuff. Nice CoolerMaster case, 2 x NV GTX 1070 8GB, and a whopping 32" AOC 1440P monitor.

[Ed P]

Wheels-Of-Fire wrote:

I am not as interested in the good friday agreement as you are Ed but I am not proposing it changes one bit. Everything can remain as is with the exception being that we will have to be trusted to keep our word once we are not bound by the human rights act.

While it is possibly conceivable that Eire (and Sinn Fein) might just trust Mainland UK, I find it very unlikely that such trust would be extended to the DUP without the good offices of a disinterested third party. (I’m not sure I trust the DUP too much myself!)

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