Air to Water Heat Pump

[Ed P]

Richard, the economics of power generation are NOT logical, and we are already in the situation you posit!

Due to the Greenie Windmill tax we are and will be paying far over the odds for each Kw of electricity we buy. Each year you will note that your so-called connection charge rises and these rises are out of line with (say) oil prices. The main reason for this is the unpredictability of most Green energy production(ex nuclear and tidal), and the consequent need to construct standby generators that do nothing for half the time. Figures I have seen suggest that for every Gw of intermittent Green Energy  a Gw of standby has to be available. This standby power costs very roughly double the normal generation cost.

The strange free market world of energy trading then results in it being cheaper for an energy company to give away (even pay someone) to use electricity when there is an over-production of wind and solar power.

[Richard]

Ed, we agree totally on this. I have heard accounts of generators being used not to produce power but as loads to help load balance ‘green flooded’ networks when production from uncontrolled sources exceeds the demands of power users. And yes, the CAPEX devoted to lumps of marginal capacity has increased very abruptly as unreliable sources have been brought into the mix. Nuclear loves a pretty static, or slow moving demand curve. Coal and similar fuel is pretty keen on similar hysteresis bound systems, gas takes a short spin up so is one of the more responsive with batteries and perhaps one day capacitors thought to provide a answer to near instant load smoothing filling in peeks in demand and adding load when things swing the other way.

Load smoothing by adding or subtracting consumer loads ‘on demand’ is a whole different bag of marbles, optimised for professor’s paper studies and water melons fantasies.

On the issue of texts and emails on mobiles, I saw a couple this morning on my phone from sometime yesterday. I might get round to reading them in a hospital waiting room later today. If they were urgent they would have rung and if they were urgent yesterday, they will not be urgent today.

[Ed P]

I set up a GMail account on my PC and view such things there. 90% of the time it is spam, and easiest to delete in Thunderbird.

[The Duke]

Ed in regards to your car EV point as a back up. That is one idea but comes with issues like warranty ect like you said. However the cars battery pack is only good for about 100k before the start to degrade to quickly.

So at that point they are end of life for a car, but they are still good for running a home, as it’s far less work than plumbing our massive amounts of power quickly. Compared to a car, the house is far easier on the battery and it should last for years.

The tesla house wall batteries are reconditioned ex car cells. So at some point eventually, we are going to have a lot of ”used” battery cells, kicking about.

There will be other uses for these batteries by then I’m sure, but I think a home battery if you have PV should be high on anyone’s list.

If you have suitable PV set up and battery, there would be no reason to have to stay on the grid, apart from having a back up. But I’d rather get a genny as a back up, and save all the standered charges.

If you don’t have a battery, you’d stay connected to the mains for night times or share falls etc…

Or you could have PV with battery, and mains, and just have it feed back to the mains once the battery is at 80% and have it pull from the mains if the battery gets to 20%, but have it only run the house and not top the battery.

It would be a simple enough to implement, it probably already exists, and would be an simple enough to retro fit to an existing PV set up. I can’t see why it doesn’t already exist.

All this type of stuff is much more popular and more advanced in the USA there is some great YouTube channels of people that do all the off grid stuff for a living. Some great efficant pv air con set ups, not that we need them here.

Engineer775 is a good example of one of the channels.

 

[Ed P]

I’m not sure where you get your battery numbers from as battery life depends on a number of factors not least being what range between recharge you need. If you are happy to accept a battery range of 50% of capacity then you are talking of a lifetime battery range of around 350000 miles. I would however be cautious of using such batteries in a home as they can be a real fire hazard if they have had too many deep discharges. This link is quite a good one to explain battery trade-offs.

The battery I have installed in my house cost less than the battery management system that came with it! (I bought it as a dual purpose animal – demand shaving for the solar(clouds cause a steep energy fluctuations) and use as a house UPS if required.)

[The Duke]

The car batteries maybe capable of rimming a car for 350k however, how many cars do you see on the road past 14 years old? Very few. It’s not cos their engines fail, most engines would do 500k if looked after, but most are scrapped around 150k cos all the electrics are failing year on year.

Now an EV is going to suffer the same issues. (tin hat time) I’m sure it’s built it, as today a car needs to hit 3 bases to be seen as a success, 1. It needs to make the original buyer/leaser happy, and hold about 40% of its value over 4 or 5 years. With non or few issues 2. The second owner, he will except issues building and sell the car around 8 to 10 years old, for about 1k, then 3. Last the car need to last 4 years. Then the cycle continues.

If the car hits them 3 marks, it’s deemed a success and all 3 owners are satisfied. It’s just what we are now conditioned to accept. So there is no way we are going to see many if any EV cars with 350k miles on them.

In general an EV won’t be able to cover the millage of an ice car. Thou given the average milege is 30miles a day, an EV could, but your not going to see real high mile ones, as you can’t drive one for more than a few hours with long charge breaks.

Just like l ice cars, they will be retired around 15 years old, with good motors and batteries, at around 100-150k miles. Maybe earlier given the amount of electrics in them.

Ive never got rid of a car cos of mechanical issues, they are relative chip to fix and simple to diagnose. Now electrical issues are the ones that kill most cars. Usually to expensive to diagnose, never mind fix.

Once the car gets to about 8 years old, (iirc tesla extended warranty  is 8 years), once out of warranty no one is fixing the slowly dying lights, locks, air con etc… Then one day you realise your car is a bag of crap and it need offloading for the 1k to the last guy in the chain above.

Oems are not going to start selling us cars that last 25 years. As we are now conditioned to the 14 year cycle. Everyone’s happy it seems.

So I’ll go back to my original point, in ten years there is going to be a lot of battery cells ready for a new life. Tesla already is already referring end of life batteries, and using them in the tesla power wall (I think they call it) .

[Richard]

Ed P wrote:

I set up a GMail account on my PC and view such things there. 90% of the time it is spam, and easiest to delete in Thunderbird.

Yes, I did that for mail, though Google regularly complain about security. A shame the PC does not also clear the marketing texts: I saw one text about an appointment after my appointment this morning.

[Richard]

I thought Renault were proposing a life of about 6 years for battery packs? Float charge/standby batteries have a cushy life, but I have seen the way they can go south when loaded towards EOL.

While some parts of the USA do have the space for batteries, many homes do not and I venture that some of their smaller lofts and flats won’t. After Grenfell, I am not sure that many would welcome a few more ‘bombs’ about blocks of flats either and there are increasing numbers of city flat dwellers these days, good luck to them all things considered.

After this mornings hospital appointment I did a supermarket dash, and ricked my shoulder with a bag, I shall watch this but stand aside from input for a while. Left handed one hand typing is a real pain.

I have to drive about tomorrow; wife’s chemo second go, plus sorting out disabled daughter. I need to be in circulation.

[Boris]

Thanks for all the responses. I found the whole subject interesting.

Never trust an atom - they make up everything !

[The Duke]

Richard I too have pulled something in my left shoulder. Last night I laid a new lawn I’m my back, woke this morning and I can’t turn my head left more han about 10 degrees.

Typing I’m my pc earlier was not great, Especally as I use my left hand for a number pad, moving my hands from the yet board to the pad. I gave up after about an hour, and have spent the day mostly idle. Moaning a lot, and getting very little sympathy!

 

[Bob Williams]

Steve, my left shoulder was giving me gyp all night and into most of today. Yesterday I had two more vaccinations to boost the activity that my spleen used to provide: Meningitis B and C. One in each shoulder: whilst the right one is unbothered, I kept turning onto my favoured left side last night and waking up with pain in my left. Combine that with the Prostate-inspired 3x toilet visits per night, and I seemed to be awake all night, until awoken from 2 solid hours by my dear Gert. I recall having jabs for various Eastern postings during Army service, and it was always the left side shoulder that reacted worst.

Chemo again tomorrow, one more week after that takes us up to a week’s holiday in a quiet Suffolk village lodge. I am looking forward to that. I like Suffolk and Norfolk.

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[The Duke]

I hope the weather keeps good for you bob.

I recall about day 3 of basic, being bent over a medical bed, jabs in both arms and a couple in each cheek. While I was bent over the Matlow doing the jabs, cracked a joke about my position and a Matlow stood behind me.

Thinking back, very pervy given he was about 40 (probably 30), but I was 16..

Its probably his line to relax everyone, but thinking back he wasn’t doing the Matlow reputation much good.

I was sick as a dog for the next two weeks to. Alot of us was. Not good when your in maximum peak bullshit period of training. I hated the first 6 weeks, got really fun after that. After week 15ish, the bullshit totally ended, and it got really serious and fun.

[Ed P]

Richard, if you have a garage the battery box and controller will be fixed to a convenient wall. The total depth of typical batteries is around 150mm and about 450mm long by 600 deep. The controller is about half that size. The garage is a good place to fit it as it normally is fireproofed and just needs a fire alarm to be fitted. Although a 6Kwh battery has a lot of energy, the controller and very conservative charge rate, max/min settings make them a LOT safer than the average tablet etc. (btw the Tesla battery packs are currently brand new).

[edit] Do NOT fit the controller where you can hear it, the controller fan is very noisy during battery charge/discharge! Again another good reason for using the garage or out-house.

Unfortunately the economics today are only break-even, and I could only justify one for its UPS potential (keep the heating running during power failures).

If anyone ever goes down this route, pay particular attention to the controller. Many are made with yachts or farms in mind, and homes need far more options than are commonly provided – e.g. top up with off-peak mains power, only use the battery during peak cost periods etc. As this is only software it SHOULD be easy to provide, but many companies do not offer such options.

[Richard]

Steve, due to deterioration and delayed spinal treatment on a good day I can turn my head about 90 degrees to the right but only about 45~50 degrees to the left before it becomes a balance between need and discomfort to go further, Happily I have good peripheral vision so can see a way before I even turn at all so side detection does not require full movement. The right arm was not too bad over night and while sore this morning – no heavy lifting it caused me no issues. I was worried as it went with a bang when I was lifting, I am hoping it had not damaged the muscle root or tendons, I did that once with one of the quadriceps and it still has a narrow in the middle from  about 56 years ago. That took months to start to settle.

Ed, to be honest I did not really think about domestic battery uses and nor realise that the batteries were so tiny. I had been used to things that were, shall we say a bit larger in the past. Cells that were the size of rooms and batteries that used whole floors in some cases. I can see your idea about garages; though since the double garage is below the bedroom I am not sure I would want to test its fire barriers quite that well. Still it does make it slightly more appealing for those who have the space. The utility feeds are already located in that area reducing the possible installation issues. I still feel that flat dwellers need not apply. A central battery room for their building would make more sense, though well designed and then well maintained fire management would be essential. The regulations would need some very explicit processes to ensure anything approaching acceptable performance.

Interesting points about the controller, though perhaps it needs to be more in the nature of a system management capability than a minimal function battery controller to contain the functions you suggest. They do appear to be pretty basic minima for a minimally useful but functional system. Getting the software to perform as needed could be a slight issue, TSB could give guidance on methods processes, software houses and testing processes, NOT to use.

As you said, a software controlled beast should not be excessively hard or costly to build. All in all a more exciting and realisable prospect than I thought at first look. Though, one I feel too old and troubled to take on at this stage.

[Richard]

Second subject from yesterday, my hospital visit was ‘interesting’. I am on track for a battery of tests and investigations following the GP’s urgent referral. The hospital group is one of a dozen who are recruiting for the piloting of a new screening process. The current one has too many false positives and more worryingly too many false negatives. So one of the first steps was to give me my ‘recruitment pack’ all pre filled out and ready for action. As my wife is already the victim of the false negative syndrome from her problem, (at least three failure to detect over 4 months) I am gung-ho for any improvements that can be brought in to any and all screening activities.

[Bob Williams]

Steve it’s cold here atm, about 12 °C, but it will be a warm car and a warm hospital, hopefully. Just a long trek to the other end of Grimsby Hospital. I get a week off next week, looks like the sea mist is along the East Coast though, so just two warm sunny days tomorrow and Sunday.

Your Matelot info reminded me of my big bro, a sailor on HMS Nelson, last battleship in the Andrew. When I was about to join the Merchant Navy at 16, he told me about what he called “Back – enders” and how one tried to ‘assault’ him. He beat the living crap out of the guy but nothing happened to my bro. On my second trip, a Bosun tried the same with me. I let him get his tackle out, then sliced it open with a steel ruler. He was taken off the ship and another guy promoted to Bosun. I was left alone after that: these things spread around the ships. I think it was because my brothers and me were short, but people always forgot or didn’t know that our old man was even shorter, but an ex-boxer and a hard little bugga, but quiet. He laid out both big bro and me at different times, only had to do it once and we both deserved it.

Off to chemo now, our Gert is hovering at the door, having got changed about an hour ago. Probably change her mind about what to wear before I’m ready.?

When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.

[Ed P]

Richard it IS basically a system management controller, the only problem being that the ‘old’ typical requirements were geared towards yachts in harbour/sea options and farm management big P/V systems. Domestic requirements are different and not normally addressed very well — an opportunity for someone!

Most of the stuff the controller does you don’t fiddle with unless you are an inveterate risk-taker e.g. rate of charge, rate of discharge, hysteresis curve for these rates, temperature cut-outs and a whole lot of other things. The manual is around 200 pages and HND/graduate level reading as is the off-line set-up trainer.

[Richard]

Ed P wrote:

Richard it IS basically a system management controller, the only problem being that the ‘old’ typical requirements were geared towards yachts in harbour/sea options and farm management big P/V systems. Domestic requirements are different and not normally addressed very well — an opportunity for someone! Most of the stuff the controller does you don’t fiddle with unless you are an inveterate risk-taker e.g. rate of charge, rate of discharge, hysteresis curve for these rates, temperature cut-outs and a whole lot of other things. The manual is around 200 pages and HND/graduate level reading as is the off-line set-up trainer.

Ed I think most if not all of us are aware that the batteries of today and even more so of tomorrow are very different to the crude device used yesterday and beyond. If not we have only to recall the problems that they can cause. Modern systems should monitor the health of ever cell during charge and discharge etc. That is already one master load to get right or suffer. Incidentally I understand that a cell change let alone a full battery change can require the recalibration of the charger.

The functions relating to output and input management including the source to use for running the premisses as well as the battery, e.g.use battery, mains, solar or wind for the building, time of day consideration, etc.? That is a whole different bag of marbles. I venture that is one with its own set of complexities and more importantly its own set of dependencies. Get that wrong and the desired results will not be obtained, ever. Though possibly one or two unwanted effects will emerge. Hence my snide reference to the TSB implementation and testing crew in a previous message.

[Ed P]

I’m afraid to me the controller is a bit like the EM system on a modern car. I looked at it out of interest and found that there was no obvious way to change it in the ways I wanted, then said ‘screw it’ I’m more likely to break it than improve it. There may well be the cell level monitoring you suggest but tbh I did not find it during my delving.

Over-arching all this of course is a very simple user level interface, and shutdown/start-up controls. The house trips ‘should’ protect anyone working on the house circuit, but it is nice to know that there are ways of powering down a 6KwH box just in case!

[The Duke]

Any modern consumer unit that controls something as volatile as a big battery, should be very locked down. 99.9% of users would burn their houses down.

I bet for the 0.01% their are more enthusiast level controllers, probably ment for devs, that one could play with and dial into exactly what they need/want.

A bit like a BT router vs a the likes of Routers is lot buy. The BT is fine, as long as your uses is like the average person. Once you go off piste, is when you see it’s limitations.

I’d be in the 99.9% when it comes to charger controllers for my home. I have a basic understanding, more than the average person, but that is a very dangerous petition, one who thinks he knows enough but doesn’t. Its fine if your playing with a ras pi for instance, but not a 6kw potential bomb. So I would be fine with the BT equivalent controller.

[Author]

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