@thevfmaddict
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I dined with the late great Douglas Adams a few times and gave him a few lifts. I can tell you he would have been cracking great lines about all this. Indeed one of his best lines is very appropriate right now– ‘I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.’
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Yep, a very interesting week. My favorite joke of the week was Leo Varadkar’s threat about Eire airspace. There is man who is not across his brief. Eire has no combat jets or long range sea search and rescue capability. A treaty is in place with Eire for the UK to provide air cover and defence of Eire airspace in the event of terrorist threats. Indeed without our air cover a terrorist could happily fly numerous jets into Dublin or Cork etc., and Leo could do nothing but watch. Of course if Leo sticks to his threat, well then, we could only join him in watching because we would be banned from his airspace. Nice one, Leo.
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I was going to respond to, Ed’s post above but then a loud gun shot grabbed my attention. Yesterday, the EU both whipped off its mask, revealing it has been seeking to punish us and in the same move shot all UK Remainers in the back probably fatally.
As you probably know the EU yesterday finalised a comprehensive Free Free Trade deal with Japan. Alignment with car safety and environmental standards was required as was the adoption of International labelling standards re Medicines and Textiles but that was about it. It did not require Japan to join the customs union or to join the single market or for the ECJ to have supreme jurisdiction regarding dispute resolution.
Quite clearly a free trade deal of the kind Brexiteers have said was possible is possible. And only the EU’s desire to punish the UK or May’s inability to negotiate resolutely has prevented such.
If another Brexit referendum takes place I am now certain that the vote will be massively in favour of Leave because one of the Remainers central arguments has now been shot dead by the EU itself.
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I will respond to your above two posts, Ed, as if one long post.
You start as often do all Remainers with a line of insults. Don’t worry I don’t take offence but I do wish Remainers would develop insight. Can you not see that your first line in essence says I am gullible and incapable of my own research?
I have not the slightest doubt that the time I have spent learning how the EU works legislatively has dwarfed your own. For the last three years I have been fully retired and for the five years previous to such I worked only occasionally on projects usually from home as my partner is disabled and needs someone around at home pretty much constantly. I have had so much free time over those years and to stop myself going brain dead I have read extensively on the way the EU works.
Now, where to start re the core tenets of your post?
First, the issue of non-EU workers. You missed my point entirely. Although I do accept some blame for that as I was perhaps unclear as to what I meant. I did not mean that under EU rules we could not admit workers from non-EU states. I agree it was May’s quotas that caused that. What I meant was that EU workers can ‘walk in’ and the UK cannot refuse such. Whereas professionals from abroad can be refused and were due to May’s quotas and at the very least had to jump through hoops to enter. Does that make sense now? I want too see a level playing field. It isn’t level at present and even if May’s quotas were set aside the need to hoop jump to recruit from anywhere other than the EU to a degree disincentives such while we remained an EU member.
Moving on your quote re the role of the EP is correct. But note that it confirms exactly what I said. The EP cannot propose legislation and it can only ‘ask’ for such or ‘ask’ for such to be brought forward. In that respect the EP has no more power than do you and I have re Westminster because you and I can ‘ask’ the government for a particular piece of legislation. MEPs have no more power to compel the Commission than do you or I to compel the UK Government. As I said in an earlier post – Confirmation Bias. There it is no power to compel merely the option to ‘ask’, which is no power at all. But you can’t see that.
I really did not understand your statement that read. “Of course we cannot unilaterally repeal EU legislation, that would be a job of our MEP.s. EU law affects all the member states and it would be anarchy for one to go its own way.”
I never suggested that we (the UK) could unilaterally repeal legislation. I was very clear that I was talking of the EP (i.e. all MEPs in total unison) not having the power to propose repealing legislation. That is the case, absolutely. It can only consider legislation proposed by the unelected Commission, be that new primary legislation or repealing legislation. Think of it this way. The situation in the EU is similar to the UK domestic situation reversed. Here the HoC proposes legislation and the HoL is the revising chamber. In the EU it is the reverse. Only the unelected arm, the Commission, can propose legislation. The elected arm, the EP, cannot propose legislation and is in the main the revising chamber. If the EP refuses to pass legislation the Commission will typically amend and resubmit. Yet again a similar flow to ours but in reverse as regards unelected to elected arms.
Your closing paragraphs get close again to insults. Of course I know the processes involved in drafting legislation and that such cannot be done on the back of an envelope; although I can point to several UK Acts which are very powerful but would fit on a C4 envelope due to their simplicity, such as the Malicious Communications Act. The point I was making was that a Westminster MP can propose legislation and alone could get it through to enactment assuming the members of the HoC vote it into the statute books. However an MEP has no such power or ability. Indeed the entire EP in unison has not that degree of power or ability.
I must take you to task very strongly on your last line. I most definitely did not say that “MEPs play no part in the process” of legislating. I had said nothing more or less than that no MEP alone nor the full EP in unison has the power to propose or repeal legislation unless such primary or repealing legislation is handed down to them by the unelected arm of the EU; i.e. the Commission. If elected members of a parliament cannot propose legislation and can only opine and rule on legislation handed down to them by unelected officers then, to me that is not democracy. Perhaps to you it is in which case we must agree to differ.
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But you are not a politician of the Bojo ilk VFM, so I expect better of you,. It is even worse that you continue to spout nonsense about lack of control when it is obvious that MEPs have more powers than our MPs.
Can you defend that position? I am certain you cannot. It is nonsense. Let me demonstrate such. Upskirting – Not even the entire EU parliament in total unison would have the power to propose such legislation. Only the appointed commissioners (i.e. the EU Commission) can propose legislation. And what about the current repeal of EU legislation in the UK. The EU parliament has no power whatsoever to repeal any EU law.
I don’t believe for one second that you declared true that which is plainly untrue, intentionally. It seems to me the problem can only be subconscious Confirmation Bias. The evidence is there robust and overwhelming that MEP’s have no power but because it does not confirm or reinforce your position you are subconsciously blinded to it.
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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
Yet still you invoke jingoism and result to insults. Because your comment was incredibly insulting. How dare you imply that people who hold opposite views to yourself are some how guilty of some sort of moral cowardice. Yet this is typical of the way that I find leavers of a certain age and gender end up going. The situation we face today is in no way comparable to any of the historical events you mention. Come here to North Bristol (or North Wales) and stand outside the Airbus gates and explain how your bold vision is going to improve their lives. Then go down the road to the small engineering workshops that provide them with parts and do the same. Never mind boys, you can vote out your MP if we get it wrong. Ah no you can’t. It’s the same safe seat Dave lives in…
If you feel insulted then you are. I cannot argue with that even though such was not my intent. I was merely saying that there are two different arguments here. One is re democracy and the other is financial gain.
Let me ask you, Dave, were money not an issue and both outcomes Leave or Remain were neutral as regards such would you vote to be run by a distant body of ‘appointed Lords’ rather than those you could elect or remove? I truly suspect not. Indeed the way you rail against your vote not counting re Westminster pretty much shows how you object profusely to having no real say. If that is so then is it not equally so that you must be arguing to stay in the EU merely on a financial basis because sure as hell distancing of democracy and disenfranchisement which EU membership brings is something you would strongly disagree with were it not for the financial arguments.
As for you saying that the examples I cited were not comparable I beg to differ. Theft of Democracy by force of arms in 1066, in 1939, etc. and Theft of Democracy by stealth in 1993 (Maastricht) remains Theft of Democracy and are comparable on that basis. Such is no different from saying that aggravated burglary and Complex Fraud are comparable because they are. Both are theft.
I recall on the old MM Forum when the issue of Brexit first surfaced the first insult that was written was about Brexiteers. Someone who will remain nameless piled in calling those who wanted to leave delusional. Since then we have had the referendum and almost all insults I hasve ever heard have been from Remainers against Brexiteers calling us Racist or Thick, etc. I am far from racist and frankly am in favour of immigration from all around the world. I’ve spent most of my working life with physicians from the Indian Subcontinent and am very upset that nowadays an Eastern European doctor can walk in but an Indian physician with even higher qualifications cannot. I can’t see that such is in our best interests. I know what I voted for. Democracy and I am prepared to pay a financial cost to restore it to these shores and to provide the opportunity for us to source our needs, be they be material or intellectual, from wherever they are available without hinder. What’s wrong with that?
We must all make up our own minds as to why we are voting in a particular way. I asked myself what price democracy? And I reached my own decision. I am prepared to and have perhaps here, explained how I reached my decision. I an not delusioned, nor racist, nor thick. Nor do I seek to cause offence. But I do believe my arguments are sound. If you do not believe them to be so then that is your prerogative and I do not take offence.
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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
I would not fundamentally disagree with you, Ed. Both sides as I see it concentrated on the financial aspects and each side exaggerated their case deceitfully. But, heck, they were all politicians so could we reasonably expect anything else.
If the Brexit battle has to be re fought then it will plainly be concerning democracy for obvious reasons. So perhaps the undemocratic nature of the EU will then get more attention.
As I said earlier explaining that the EU is run in a fashion akin to our HoL having control and the HoC having very little, is in my experience something most folks can understand quite easily. When I have explained that to folks they appear quite quickly to understand that there is a very, very strong case for leaving. That said it is true that folks are inclined to vote mainly on how things will affect their pockets in the short term. So perhaps the vote would be to remain were there a re-run. However, I would still have my fears because the democratic void in the EU can only ever lead sooner or later to the outcome that invariably results from such and that is an outcome as ugly as things ever get.
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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
I cannot vote out my MP, nor any of the civil servants who run the country and my local council. I see you have invoked Godwins Law, it was only a matter of time.
Not really, Dave. I could have cited our battles with William in 1066 or with Napoleon in the early 1800’s. The principle remains the same. This has nothing to do with the Nazi’s or Hitler. It is a simple question of whether one desires to be controlled by appointed Lords or elected representatives who represent the opinions of their electorate.
Indeed that you cite that you have no say in the UK surely validates that government should reside as close to its electorate as possible rather than be moved to a point even more remote. I believe in PR for Westminster which would solve your problem instantly giving you a real say. But moving decision making further away makes no sense to me. Look for example at the demonstrations in Westminster of late or even at the time of the Poll Tax riots. How many who were there would or could have been involved had they had to travel to Brussels or Strasbourg to protest or lobby. The reality is that the EU commission which proposes legislation can only be lobbied there and hence only big business has the resources to lobby. Remember – Your local MEP is impotent because the EU parliament can neither propose nor repeal legislation no matter how strong those elected individuals feel about an issue. Had the poll tax come from Europe then it would have been almost impossible to reverse.
The mantra that most Leavers didn’t know what they were voting for may or may not be true. But when I ask Remainers if they understand how the EU is governed I can assure you that the percentage of Remainers who don’t have a clue and think that the EU Parliament runs like ours and has control is close to 99%. They most definitely do not know what they voted for.
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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
All politicians are troughers and will work whatever is best for their personal interests be they UK and EU politicians.
The difference as I see it is that we can vote out UK politicians bur not the EU elite. Remember – Only the EU Commission (appointed EU Lords in effect) can propose EU legislation. Th EU’s elected representatives, MEP’s, can neither propose nor repeal EU legislation. My view is perhaps no different from many in 1939. The right of self-determination far outweighs the costs that result from standing up for it.
I truly do begin to wonder as I listen to Remainers in general whether, had they been around in 1939, they would have argued that we should not have stood up for democracy because it would have cost us too much.
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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
On the latest polls there is not the slightest chance of a Labour Government. One about to be published has UKIP now up to 11% with both Labour and Cons dropping percentages. So I do expect JC to become PM but PM of a Labour/SNP coalition government not a Labour Government. So a guarantee of Scot IndyRef2 is pretty much certain. How Labour would handle that I don’t know? A suspension of cabinet responsibility perhaps with Lab Ministers free to campaign against Scot. Ind and SNP ministers obviously campaigning for. What a mess that will be. Not least because Scot. Ind. if it occurred would tip Westminster and mean another GE would need to take place – and – with Scot. out of the union the UKIP percentage of the total UK vote would rocket.
Batten down the hatches. We are in for the mother of all storms and one constitutional crisis after another.
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Not really, Ed. The DUP are increasingly irrelevant. The current polling depending on whether or not there is equal distribution projects to at best 270 Tory seats and at worst 250. If those figures continue then May is toast quite rapidly and even with DUP support a new leader would find it difficult to stay in power and not to go for a GE. The reality is that now no way the Tories can prevent major defeat at the next GE. From here on it its about damage limitation and keeping the defeat as small as possible. The only way to do that is to stop the Tory life threatening bleed to UKIP. The longer the bleed is allowed to continue the greater the damage. Rationally any new Tory leader must look to the longer term future and not the present. So my bet is they will choose a young leader who will move towards a hard Brexit and blame the DUP if that becomes impossible. Even a Brexit Ref2 would not stop the Tory>UKIP bleed. It might even increase its flow.
As for the Irish border problem it is not what it seems. EIRE needs the UK land bridge for its trade with the EU. It has not the shipping container capacity to anywhere near survive without it. No matter what the EU say it would itself not dare to install a hard border or to risk losing the UK land bridge its economy would collapse qyute literally instantly. It trade very little with the rest of the world. So as long as we do not enforce a hard border there will not be one. A ‘land bridge’ agreement is possible. Containers sealed in EIRE which remain sealed until once again on EU territory with the UK acting merely as a bridge. Funnily enough that is effectively what happens with shipped containers at present anyway if one thinks about it. They leave EIRE travel through the UK without being opened (i.e. through UK waters) and are only opened again once on the EU mainland.
Solving the Irish border problem is simply a case of calling EIRE’s bluff. That is to say declare that we won’t set up a hard border but EIRE can if it wants – and – we are more than willing to allows sealed containers to traverse UK soil as at present.
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The Guardian are this evening reporting the latest Opinium poll. Labour voting intentions stable at 40% Tories beginning to dive and down to 36% UKIP up from 3% to 8% in just a week. So its clear where the Tory vote is going. My bet is that the effect of that fall is even greater than the percentage suggests because those moving to UKIP seem to be Tory party members who are the canvassers who get the Tory vote out come elections. I cannot see the trend reversing even if the Tories move to a Brexiteer Leader Who would now believe any Tory Leader who declared Brexit would now mean Brexit? Unless that leader was JRM and there’s no way that the Parliamentary Tory party will put him as one of the two candidates offered to the membership.
My money is now very firmly on either a Labour majority or heaven forbid a Labour/SNP coalition following the next GE whenever that is.
Thanks, Theresa. When you said ‘Brexit means Brexit’ you should have added ‘and BRINO means Corbyn’ because its quite clear now that it does.
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I don’t disagree with either of you. You are both spot on. But we might be able to change the UK system by, for example, adopting proportional representation or setting up systems to regulate regulators. However, we would have less than zero chance of changing EU systems. Not even Cameron could muster more than one other member vote to stop a total alcoholic getting voted in by the remaining 27. Take a bow (or another Brandy) Jean-Claude.
I suppose what I’m saying is that I can’t see that our system being imperfect is a good reason to stay part of an even more imperfect system. If the HoL tried to take power even in this relatively placid land sooner or later there would surely be rebellion. I see no reason to conclude, given that many European populations are even more volatile than us, that there will not be serious rebellion in the EU at some point in the future because the elected MEPs can neither propose or real legislation. Folks seem to wonder why the extreme right is growing in power across the EU. It’s ‘kin obvious to me. For so many reasons the inflexible rules of the EU, be it re anything from migration to monetary policy, provide the fuel with which the far right light their bonfires.
Take a look around. Look at the anger growing here as the May’s government betrays the referendum decision of the majority, albeit a small one. Look at the volume of angry letters sent to the Telegraph this week. Were this France there would already be riots and fire in the streets, wouldn’t there not.
I have a way out of the current divide. Just extend the current ‘All Inclusive Approach’. That might just possibly lead to folks feeling their votes counted and quell the current anger. Let us either move immediately to proportional representation or decide that whoever wins the next GE must appoint a proportionate number of MP’s from the opposition parties as Ministers. That won’t happen will it. The two major parties won’t support PR nor will they appoint opposing ministers to their cabinet. Therefore if the system in the UK is to remain rigidly FPTP then surely the entire current cabinet should at be made up of Brexiteers should it not, because Brexit was first past the post.
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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
I had a discussion with a group of old friends last night, the majority (just) are Remainers. I am, as most folks know, a Brexiteer. As usual a couple of the Remainers said I didn’t know or at least that most Leave voters didn’t know what we were voting for. After last night I think I agree with them because a couple of fellow Leavers in the group acted like the light had suddenly come on after I explained what the EU considers to be democracy.
Explaining why the EU is undemocratic I have always found to be a difficult and complex task. For some reason last night I suddenly realised that in reality it is not difficult to explain. And when I found the simple way to do so I found that not one Remainer there was fully aware of what I told them. A couple said that what I was saying couldn’t possibly be true. One is the kind of guy who will go off and check to the nth degree just to prove one wrong. I’ve just had a call from him this morning and an apology. I’m not sure he would now vote Leave if there were a second ref. but I suspect he might as he seemed quite shocked to discover that what I had said was true. I’m going to share what I said last night.
I asked how Remainers would feel if at Westminster only the House of Lords could propose legislation and the House of Commons could neither propose nor repeal legislation. None liked the idea of that. Then I told them that that is how the EU operates. Only the EU Commission made up of Commissioners appointed by countries in the same way as our non-hereditary peers are appointed to the HoL, can propose EU legislation and the European Parliament (the Elected MEP’s) can neither propose nor repeal legislation no matter how strongly it feels. It is as simple as that.
I said that unless one would be happy for the HoL to run Westminster and the HoC to have no power whatsoever to propose or repeal legislation then how could one ever be happy with the EU’s Democracy because that is exactly how the EU is structured. The only voices I heard at that point were those who simply couldn’t believe it. The other Remainers and indeed even two of those that were like me Brexiteers looked shocked or as regards the Brcxiteers as if I had just walked into their church with cast iron proof that God exists.
Funny, isn’t it how after struggling for more years than I can remember trying to find a simple way to explain why the EU is anti-democratic a few pints of Fullers with a bunch of old friends that I haven’t seen in some time, for reasons I don’t understand, led to me to finding the simple explanation that has escaped me for so long.
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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
I really like the poles. The first wave we got were the useless drunks but now we have the young couples with toddlers. Couldnt be more polite.
So do I. I grew up with many Polish families near where the Polish cultural Centre in now in Hammersmith. My Leave vote had nothing to do with immigration and was because of the non-democratic nature of the EU. The point I was trying to make is that I suspect that those who do feel threatened by the Eastern Europeans probably feel such because of the language barrier that is far more marked than with internal Asian migration.
What does confuse me in your responses though is that you had said ‘in only 40 years’. Surely that suggests you are also talking migration pre the Eastern European influx. Certainly my experience of Wembley is that from the mid 1980 its ethnic Asian population has grown astoundingly and having spoken to many commercially of that population almost all seem to be internal migrants from Harrow, Southall and Hounslow. That is to say the language barrier was all but non-existent.
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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
I live near Uxbridge but would add a clarification to what Wheels just said. Most of the change in Wembley is not direct immigration but the movement of second, third and fourth generation immigrants from other areas such as Southall. Hounslow, Luton, etc. although such may have been what Wheels was meaning when he said ‘non white british’.
Hillingdon on the other hand is changing not as a result of movement from the close Asian communities of Hounslow and Southall, which one might expect, but from a rapidly growing Eastern European community. Personally, I think that people feel more ‘threatened’ by such because of the language barrier. Asian ethnic internal migration (i.e. of non white british) is not such a perceived ‘threat’ because second, third and fourth generation Asians, who have grown up here are totally fluent in English. One must not underrate the importance of communication. Folks always feel more threatened by those they cannot converse with than those they can. Given this it is perhaps hardly surprising that Hillingdon was one of the few London areas that voted leave.
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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
I’ve never found Gary Lineker funny before but this tweet cracked me up so I had to share it here:
Gary Lineker@GaryLineker
Boris Johnson is the latest to hand in a transfer request as his team hurtle towards inevitable relegation._______________________________________________________________________________________
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Absolutely correct Ed. No country was a member of the EU until Maastrict because it didn’t exist until then. We only became a member at that time when John Major committed us to that political union (without asking us) by bullying his own party. In reality that is the cause of all that’s happening now. Had he let the people decide in 1993 then no matter which way such a referendum had gone, be it in or out, it would have been the will of the people and we wouldn’t be where we are today.
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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
Dear Britain,
Recently we noticed you had started to copy our style of success in the World Cup but we let it pass. Then we discovered you were also copying our style of weather. We let that pass too. But now it seems you are also copying our style of politics. This is all getting too much !!!
Yours,
Italy
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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
With hindsight perhaps what May should have done when taking office was to say, “OK you want Brexit that’s decided but what type of Brexit do you want? I will research all practical options and then present them to you (i.e. by referendum) to pick.”
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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
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