[The VFM Addict]

Dave, this thread is of course one of many from both here and the old MM forum that are closely and inseparably Brexit related.   None can therefore be viewed in isolation.

I recall at no stage seeing in any of those threads Remainers being directly insulted as “delusional”, “idiots”, “stupid”, “racist”, “extremists”, etc    Any intolerance of the alternative view point has always been on the part of Remainers as studies and surveys have found; with Leavers (of which I am blatantly one) being constantly labelled one of the above.

I have been for several decades now left of centre although in my youth I was fully left.  An old 8mm reel in the family achieve records me canvassing for Labour.   I am no more an idiot, delusional, stupid or a racist than was Tony Benn.   I do accept that some may have considered Benn a left extremist.   For those who do then perhaps I am also one regarding the EU.   My position on it is identical to Benn’s.   We both believe(d) that the EU is anti-democratic.   I also accept that these days and given recent events in Labour some might argue that to support Labour as it is now is to be racist.  However, had I not moved more towards the centre as I have aged and had I for longer been  a member of the Labour party I would long since have left the party due to its recent position(s).    Although I am now merely centre left I am not a Blairite.   To my mind he was closer to being a‘soft Tory’ rather than Labour.   That said I did vote for him the first two times he was elected as he was closest to the centre left position I inhabit.   I agree with what Ed said early in this thread that Blair totally messed up immigration.  That arguably in part led to the Ref result.   I believe it to be entirely non sequitur to automatically label those against free movement to be racist.    I would be equally against 3 million Brummies or Geordies moving into London in a few short years.   Its the numbers and rate of flow that is the problem not race when it comes to Brexit.    Far too many of the labels attached insultingly and universally to all Leavers in all Brexit related threads here and on the old MM forum are without any legitimate foundation whatsoever.

Dave for you to (at the outset of all Brexit debate here and elsewhere) have labelled right after I had said I was a Leaver, all Leavers to be “delusional” was quite clearly making things personal.   Have some insight, man.   I will say no more than – First Blood.   The insulting attacks on Leavers of which all knew/know I am one have persisted ever since using the derogatory epithets I listed above and more.    I challenge you to review this entire thread and find a single term of insult directed by me or anyone else towards Remainers.    But the reverse is perpetual, consistent and plethora.   So how dare you attack as if I am the one who has made matters personal.

I am sorry if I took your numerous posts about multiple trips to Europe as meaning more than a single 5 day city break holiday (£35 each way on EasyJet).    I do presume that the trip cost you in total far, far more than the air travel which is all that you cite as if to suggest the trip cost very little.   Quite some spinning, Dave.   Pick the cheapest bit, focus on it.    You would be a damn fine SpAd to some Minister.

To put matters straight I never suggested that you were overly affluent.   Don’t be so ridiculous.   All I suggested was that you have obviously not been smashed by austerity in the same way those needing to use food banks have.   Your posts in numerous threads about going to different parts of Europe, to beer festivals, etc., obviously misled me.   I trust I do not need to list and cite them all.   I suspect those posts misled not merely me but many others here also.   That you now explain it was just a single trip costing you no more in total than a few quid to Stavros clearly sets the record straight for all of us.

I believe that the records of all of my posts and those of other are indeed enough to verify all of the above.  And the content of Ed’s post immediately above this clearly proves which side indulge in personal attacks – Q.E.D.   So now I;m a Moggite when in raility I’m a Benn’ist.

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[The VFM Addict]

Ed P wrote:

Sorry – obviously I was totally floored by your undirected rhetoric which was apparently addressed to JCD, but you wanted a reply from all. To which I wrongly assumed you would be waiting for JCD’s comments. You then addressed a post to me, and included general rhetoric to which you did not want a reply, but then complained that I had not replied. Confusing — Hell yes, just like some of your Brexit spinning!

Ed, the sequence you state is incorrect but that aside, posts on a thread are not personal messages even if they are responses to other’s posts.   They are effectively open letters because this is a forum.

There was no ambiguity in my post albeit in response to JCD that read:

“If there is two things I believe everyone of this thread would agree with. First that Politics in the UK is fatally wounded – and – Second that we desperately need PR if we want compromise and consensual decisions to be reached. Is it – So say all of us, lads? I do hope so.”

JCD is obviously not “everyone”; JCD is obviously not “all of us”; and he is not “lads”.    Your first post after I had written that commenced:

“I can accept or agree nothing…….”

In no other post than that the one I quote above had I asked for anyone to ‘agree’ to anything.   So quite blooming obviously I thought that you were responding to my question regarding whether we all agree that politics is broken and we need PR.    How flipping hell else could your words logically be taken.   Do try to keep up, Ed.

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[The VFM Addict]

Dave Rice wrote:

Sorry not been about. And yes it was hair splitting on the word move, as you know very well. It avoided my question as to what will the grand Brexit project being doing to help replace the jobs lost? These jobs have gone, for whatever reason, what part of the sunny uplands will be coming to the rescue? Austerity and me. You really have a cheek, you know nothing of my circumstances yet you imply that I must be well off enough or something not to notice. Some sort of champagne socialist. Well I am disabled with a wife and kids and rely on things like public transport – BTW I get no help from the state whatsoever and never have. I am now helping get the last one through University and the oldest finish his PhD (you don’t get paid to write them up and you don’t get a student loan). They have got there through sheer hard work and my wife and I have had to make sacrifices to get them there and keep them there. Patronisation I don’t need.

I was not being patronising nor accusing you of being a champagne socialist.

You post has two components I will address each.   You keep talking of all these jobs lost due to Brexit.   If such were the over all trend then unemployment would be rising.   It is not.  It is falling.    Companies come and go.   That’s the way of things.   The reality is that when Woolworth’s closed more jobs were lost than are now vanishing from the car industry.   Kodak lost thousands of jobs as Digital Photography took over.   Its all the way of markets and technological developments.   Jobs however have come from all over and we now have lower unemployment than when Woolworth’s existed and Kodak ruled the chemical photography world.  No individual company nor even market can be viewed in isolation.   It is the overall trend that matters.  There is no massive fall in the number of jobs quite the reverse.  It is as preposterous to ask me where the jobs will come from to replace those lost in the car industry as it would be to ask me to tell you where the jobs came from to replace those lost at Woolworth’s or Kodak or in Coal Mining.   The answer will be as it was with those – From all over the place.   I say again unemployment is falling.   So clearly jobs came to replace them.   What I find utterly ridiculous is that Remainers on the one hand say we need freedom of movement because we need the extra workers from the EU but then say we are losing jobs.    Spot the contradiction.   There has been no exodus of jobs and the loses at Nissan and Honda are but a scratch compared to the loses we have seen over the years in other industries and companies; like Coal Mining or Woolworths.

Regading as you put it patronisation –  The point I was making is that from your posts here over recent years (and indeed even in the post to which I am now replying here) I see nothing to suggest you have been directly hit by austerity.   I fail to see why your disability comes into it.    My partner is disabled and is prescribed more than a dozen different medications a week.  The last few years she has been a wheelchair user.   We will both knows therefore that the disabled have not been directly hit by austerity measures because DSA and PIP unlike other benefits were not capped under austerity measures.    I am not sure how public transport comes into it either.  Public transport has not been reduced as a direct austerity measure either.

I simply do not suspect that you visit food banks as has at least one of my extended family to my knowledge.   On this site you incredibly often talk of numerous trips/holidays to Europe and of purchases of luxuries like craft beers.   Such are hardly badges of those severely suffering as a result of austerity measures.    Of course you were not obliged to answer.   But from your posts here over recent years, months and weeks, I believe it was entirely valid to assume that you have not been badly hit by austerity measures; unlike those reliant on benefits who can’t even afford a trip to the British Seaside let alone multiple trips to Europe each year and at times can’t even fund another loaf of bread let alone Belgium beers.

I do not see that the fact that you are helping your off-spring though post-grad education links with a debate re austerity measures either.   I have not the slightest doubt that your off-spring have got where they are by hard work nor that you have had to make sacrifices to help.   Been there done it.   Medical qualifications require hard work, longer degrees and hence greater debt and having lived through helping one of ours down that route and his other two siblings through normal degrees, I am well aware of how it impacts finances.   Indeed, two years during that ‘helping hand phase’ we could not even afford a holiday in the UK let alone cross the channel several times a year.

Sorry, Dave, I certainly wasn’t calling you a champagne socialist.  But I was most definitely responding to the facts as posted by you on this site and they are entirely inconsistent with you having been bludgeon by austerity measures.   I do wonder if you have seen the effect they have close-up like I have.   No correct that.   I’m pretty certain you have not or you would surely have cited such in your post.    Instead you cited numerous facts in that post which are in reality not related to austerity but which appear to seek to paint you are hard pushed and hard done by; something entirely at odds with the huge body of evidence which exists elsewhere on this cite in your posts.

I am sure most long term users of this site in their hearts would have to agree that your posts suggest you are doing better financially than most who post here (and I do not doubt that such is from your hard work) but have said nothing before or in your recent post to suggest that you or yours are any thing like a victim of austerity.   Feel free of course to cite both the dates of your next planned holiday  to Europe and I will feel free too cite the next visit of my extended family members to a food bank as soon as I can speak with them.

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[The VFM Addict]

Ah, I see.  We were talking about different ‘questions’ and hence talking at cross purposes.   The question you responded to was not a direct or directed question at all.  It was merely rhetorical – i.e.  Why won’t the EU accept a softer backstop and instead are in effect forcing No Deal and no backstop at all.    Note very carefully that nowhere in you post to which you were referring and responding did I ask anyone to agree.

The only post where I was asking for agreement as such was in my reply to JCD, which was also my last post prior to your reply.   That post included;

‘If there is two things I believe everyone of this thread would agree with. First that Politics in the UK is fatally wounded – and – Second that we desperately need PR if we want compromise and consensual decisions to be reached.  Is it – So say all of us, lads?’

That post was directly asking if folks agreed.   So when your first post after it said you could not agree with anything, then quite obviously I thought you were replying to that open request to all regarding PR.

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[The VFM Addict]

All I asked was whether you agree that we need PR in the UK.     Your response leaves me concluding that you are responding to my posts without reading them.  Because your response seems so totally mismatched with what the actual question was.

If I take your text as written response to what the actual question was I would have to conclude that you are against PR; which I very much doubt to be the case.

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[The VFM Addict]

@JCD,

I know what you mean about losing long texts.  I now pre-type in MSWord and then past to avoid such.  If there is two things I believe everyone of this thread would agree with.  First that Politics in the UK is fatally wounded – and – Second that we desperately need PR if we want compromise and consensual decisions to be reached.    Is it – So say all of us, lads?    I do hope so.

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[The VFM Addict]

First @JCD,

I forgot to add that TIG defector Sarah Wollaston sponsored a 2011 bill to make by-elections compulsory for any MP changing party.    That is the mark of the integrity of the TIGGERS !!!

Now @EdP,

Obviously I was not splitting hairs re Dave.   Yes Japan does have a FTA with the EU meaning it could and would have repatriated production irrespective of whether we remained in the EU or not.   Were this not so it could have gone to an EU state or any other state that had an FTA with the EU.   That is is going home and is leaving Turkey at the same time proves the Honda move, as they said themselves, had nothing to do with Brexit.   To continue to attempt to link them to Brexit is unquestionably willfully incongruous and misleading.

As regards Germany, German commitment to the EU is crucial for the EU’s survival, is it not?   Having to bail out Eire could severely damage the German electorate’s commitment to the EU given that dissent re immigration and the ever growing rise of the AfD have shown.   AfD are in favour of Gexit of whatever one would term it.    It matters not if the smaller EU states are hit hard by Brexit but hit Germany at this point in time when recession is nearing and euroscepticism is growing and the wound could be fatal to the EU politically hitting it at its core.   AfD already projected to take large numbers of MEP seats in May would have a field day.   Truly, Germany and the EU cannot politically afford having to bail out Eire.   That is the dynamic that gives us a strong hand.   And, I say again No Deal provides no backstop whatsoever.   So why not accept the softer backstop offered in Malthouse?     Crikey if you were offered by your employer a slight reduction in your terms of employment or no job at all due to adverse trading conditions what would you accept.   It would make no sense for the EU to stick to so hard a backstop to such a degree as to guarantee no backstop whatsoever.

But I anticipate that our MPs as a whole will not have the sense to recognise the above.   So folks heads down because its likely to be Battle Brexit, more fierce than ever before, for the next twenty years or until the EU collapses through its inability to reform just as Soros has predicted.

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[The VFM Addict]

@JCD

JayCeeDee wrote:

I got the pendulum reference, but in the earlier paragraphs of that post, you seemed to be waxing lyrical on the achievements of the Conservatives, whilst in the next recounting Business World’s fear over Labour. That aspect alone, puts you on the right of politics. Yet, if neither extreme is desirable, you seem to be mocking those leaving the extremes to meet in the middle. That’s ‘cake and eat it’ time!!

How very wrong you are.   I am a great supporter of the middle ground compromise reached by firm Remainers like Nicky Morgan and firm Leavers like JRM; that is to say the Malthouse compromise.

I see no others leaving the extremes to meet in the middle.  Certainly not the TIGGERS.  The only thing that unites the TIGGERS is that all are firm Remainers.    Has or will Soubry renounce the austerity that she was so vociferous in supporting or voting for?   Or has Chukka suddenly started endorsing it?   Strip away the sole unifying component of their alliance – their avid support for remain – and where is this middle ground meeting?    It is that I mock.   Because they do not offer what they paint on their tin.   Tell me have you ever seen such blatant lies and hypocrisy as that exhibited by Heidi Allen.   Do take take a look.

I’m sorry to say this but if you think that the TIGGERS are meeting in some middle ground or are worthy of respect I truly believe you have been utterly taken in.    Despite the old commercial catch phrase that “Tiggers are wonderful things…” in this case nothing could be further from the truth.   All were MPs that were going nowhere in their own parties, were at risk of being deselected, knew it and tried a side-step to prolong their own careers.    They offer nothing new and are about as useful at representing a healthy compromise as is a bag containing a mix of lettuce leafs and raw stinging nettles.

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[The VFM Addict]

@Dave

I believe that the last paragraph of your post demonstrates how full of spin your position actually is.   The car manufacturers are not moving to “countries that have a FT with the EU” as such implies.   Were that so they would be moving to numerous countries, such as Canada or South Africa.   The reality is that they are moving production home to Japan.   Such would have occurred irrespective of whether we remained in the EU or not.   This is why Honda are also leaving Turkey and that plainly has nothing to do with Brexit, does it.

I chuckled when you said we all paid for austerity and then modified what you consider to be ‘all’.   Let me ask you, Dave, can you list what aspects of austerity it has been which have seriously impacted you or your family directly?     Conversely, several members of my own extended family are through no fault of their own entirely reliant on state benefits and they have been hit very hard by the austerity. Most benefit increases have been capped sub-inflation for the last five or six years; i.e. just 1%.    Those are the hardest hit by austerity so please do not imply that I have no idea of what austerity has caused.  I suspect I’ve seen its effect at closer hand than you.   In reality I have great issue with the Triple Lock which guarantees OAP’s, of which I am now one, hikes in the State Pension of at the very least 2.5% a year.    It would have been to my mind more balanced to raise all benefits, be they pre or post retirement age equally.    I am not comfortable with the Triple Lock during austerity which in reality we all know was/is designed primarily to keep older, more inclined to vote Tory, voters on-side; and to hell with benefit reliant voters who most commonly are Labour supporters.   I think that stinks.

I note you statement that the jobs have gone.   Can you point to those that have gone due to Brexit.   If jobs were going as you insist then it is hardly ever likely that employment levels would be increasing as they have done or unemployment falling as it has done, is it?    If there was a sum total exodus of jobs the reverse would be true, wouldn’t it?    Obviously, some companies will reduce their involvement in the UK and others will increase theirs.    Its only the total picture that tells the tale.   Forgive me if I don’t accept you inherently tempting invitation to reply in kind with a suggestion that you too wake up and smell the coffee.   Instead I would simply ask you to look at the figures.   There is no over all exodus of jobs.   The absolute reverse is the case.     There is no prediction from either the BoE or the EU that UK growth will be lower post Brexit than will be Germany’s.     The reverse is true.  Both project greater growth from us than in Merkel-Land.   Again look at the figures.

Post Brexit Art.24 of GATT would allow us to continue trade as is with the EU provided that the EU agreed.    You might ask why they would ever agree.    I’ll tell you.  Its because they sell more to us than we sell to them; its because it solves the N.I. border issue; its because the very last thing they want is to have to bail out Ireland should a No Deal occur, especially just before the EU elections take place.  The German electorate have had enough of having to fund bail outs.  Another at such a point in time would see the AfD support going meteoric during the elections.    Truly, Germany cannot weather a No Deal.   Yes, Malta, Greece, Romania, Lithuania, etc., etc., are not terribly hurt by No Deal but the most dominant state in the EU, that which especially without us would be even more so the EU’s bankroller, would be severely hurt financially and politically.    That is pivotal, especially at a point when Germany it is already tottering on the brink of recession.    If and I agree its an unlikely if, Parliament held its nerve, the backstop would be softened or removed; and then the Malthouse compromise would pass to the relief of all of us.

However, if Parliament does not hold its nerve the EU involvement conflicts that have persisted in this country for the last forty years will continue and I suspect far more savagely than ever before.   To my mind that will destroy our community and our appeal to inward investment even more so than a No Deal Brexit would.  Because such would mean enduring and relentless uncertainty.

In closing I concur fully with one thing you suggest might occur; civil disobedience.   With a roughly 50/50 split in opinions and passions high on both sides such disobedience is pretty much guaranteed if the decision goes either way.   The only sign I see of that being avoided is the Malthouse compromise which was agreed by firm Remainers like Nicky Morgan and firm Leavers like JRM.   But for that to be achieved Parliament must not blink before the EU does.   I don’t see the bunch of Muppets in Parliament exhibiting the slightest sign of a steady nerve.   Most are a load ob ‘blinkers’.  Remind me, colloquially what do folks of tradition say makes one go blind………if you get my drift, Parliament is full of them.   So one way of the other I’m probably as certain as you seem to be that very considerable civil disobedience will be what we have to look forward to.

 

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[The VFM Addict]

JayCeeDee wrote:

By austerity do you mean ‘swingeing spending cuts for everyone!! – except for us and our mates/sponsors!!’?? If so you could be right – oh it seems you already are. The fear and trepidation held by people like myself – long standing labour supporters – of the prospect of a Corbyn/McDonnell government ( which is a Momentum government in all but name ) have been expressed on here and on other topics. We agree on that but don’t need to hear how your ” ….rectifying government of the right to eventually replace it and the need for austerity.” will save the country, because what has it done for the NHS, teachers, Police, welfare, railways, etc over the past 9 years.

I did not intend to suggest that the ‘rectification’ took things to where they should be or that such as you put it, would “save the country”.    I had thought my analogy with a pendulum and how a swing too far in one damaging direction results is and equal an opposite swing in the other would have made that clear that the other is equally damaging.   Neither extreme is desirable.  It is merely inevitable in major part because our FPTP electoral system of its very nature is not one conducive to balance.

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[The VFM Addict]

Personally I have no fear of a second referendum.    Logically though it will increase division and if it goes the Remain way would simply protract the Pro v Anti EU War for another decade or more.  Ultimately it could settle nothing.

Being a Chess player who has competed at more than casual level I can say with certainty that often players have a totally won position on the board but play it badly and lose.    We had a winning board but May played it badly.    That she secured no advantageous deal for us does not mean that those who declared it was a winning board were wrong.    Tell me, Dave, have you ever blown a negotiation.  I certainly have, often.  Even the very, very best rarely get it right more that 80% of the time.   And May is not even a mediocre negotiator.

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[The VFM Addict]

I think you forget on whose watch the Banking Crisis of 2008 occurred or who in legend left a note saying all the money was gone when leaving office.   Today the economy is outpacing Germany’s with higher predicted growth than theirs and we have the highest levels of employment on records with 60,000 less people on zero hour contracts than a year ago.   There is real wage growth with increases outstripping inflation.

Perhaps in a way you make my point for me Tippon making the error of confusing how the economy performs with how that income (revenue income) is spent (i.e. austerity).  I agree that revenue is not being well spent but its generation cannot currently be faulted.

Brexit factors aside, either way, the Business World dreads a Corbyn & Mc Donnell style socialist government.  Inward investment which has been steady despite Brexit fears will plummet.   It will not favour higher taxes and the sword of nationalisation constantly overhead.    But perhaps the young need to learn the hard way and past experience has shown over and over that it is the economic crashes that occur under the left that result in a rectifying government of the right to eventually replace it and the need for austerity.

The pendulum that constantly swings tends to follow the rule of an equal and opposite reaction.   Corbyn and McDonnell if they get in are farther to the left than this country has ever seen.     The correction that would be needed to follow it I suspect would necessitate austerity like we have not seen since the late forties immediately after WW2; and far worse than that of the last decade.

I have not the slightest doubt whatsoever that were Brexit not fogging the issues at present folks here would be expressing close to terror at the thought of a Corbyn/McDonnell Labour government.   It was not that long ago that Dave (ricedg) was adamant that it Corbyn ever got in he would leave the country.   Such was his acknowledgement of the damage Corbyn would cause.

What of the middle-ground?   Well the TIGGERS include the likes of Soubry who voted for every austerity measure without exception as almost without exception so did Heidi Allen and Woolaston.  No salvation there then.

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[The VFM Addict]

I agree that all age groups are lacking re their political knowledge.    However, if one thinks of one’s own younger years I am sure you would concede that you knew far less then about politics and the contemporaneous politicians than you do now of politics and those in power now.

So, don’t get me wrong, Ed, I am not specifically slagging off today’s young.   Indeed they probably know more than did the young in our day.    But overall it is surely so that the young in general know less about politicians and politics than do older individuals.   I would bet that the viewing audience of all heavily political TV programs from Marr to Newsnight to QuestionTime, etc., and radio listeners from LBC or Any Question? exhibit an older demographic.   The young are typically too busy socially or studying for exams, etc., to sit in the comfy chair so to speak.

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[The VFM Addict]

I know what you mean, Duke.   Frankly, I’m over retirement age and still don’t feel grown up…………..LOL

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[The VFM Addict]

The Crazy and Fickle Young

Let me start by saying that crazy or not the young are as entitled to their opinions as anyone.  I would defend that right.   Nonetheless I continue to be surprised whenever I review opinion poll data at how totally erratic and self contradictory the young are.

I have just been looking at the latest DeltaPoll, the full data from which is available here.   Certain things sprung off the pages as I read it.

Given that 18-24 year olds are so anti-Brexit it seemed quite self-contradictory that when asked who would make the best next leader of the Tories, that age group listed Jason R-M as their number one choice.  But it then got even more crazy.

Quite clearly DeltaPoll were trying to assess which age groups have the best and least grasp of politics and the major players.   Folks were given a list of names and asked who would make the best leader of TIG.    There were of course reasonably likely candidates such as Chukka but also numerous unlikely and bizarre candidates such as a particular Google Vice-President and a past UK War Monger, in the persons of Clegg and Blair respectively.   However, to make the test even more revealing a certain large ear’d football commentator was also in the mix, none other that Gary L.    The results among 18-24’s were that Clegg came out on top, Luciana Berger and Tom Watson(!) came joint second, Cameron and Spreadsheet Phil joint third, with Chukka and Lineker in joint fourth.   Poor Chukka.   No chance of him scoring he is plainly OFF-SIDE!!!    For the record, in the 24-35 age group Lineker actually won by a country mile scoring twice as many votes as any other two candidates put together.   GOAL !!!    Can’t help but wonder if the dramatic fall off of Clegg in this group derives from his betrayal and the large Uni Debts many of that age group may now be carrying.

Having digested all the data I was left concluding that either the majority of the young have no idea of who is who and of what is going on – or – they have an almost sadistic sense of humour.   WICKED!!!

What did terrify me though was the verdict of the young when asked – ‘Putting aside any support for a political party you may have, which of the following do you think would be best for the British economy?’    Almost twice as many chose Labour as chose the Tories.   (Of course such might have been influenced by Brexit issues and the poll includes no control that would allow such to be ruled out.)

Returning finally to the specific title of this very thread; certainly in the 18-24 years olds TIG has the potential to utterly bury the Liberals.   Voting intentions (by numbers not by %) were Con:23, Lab:44, TIG:28 and Lib:2.     For completeness, UKIP:1, Greens:1; SNP:1

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[The VFM Addict]

I agree 100% that we need PR.   I voted for such in the PR ref but as almost always people are resistant to change.   Perhaps as you in effect suggest it may take ‘change’ to occur first before the system is forced to catch up.    You will forgive me if I say that such may be some small conciliation or at least a silver plated lining if we do No Deal Brexit and the woes that you anticipate materialise.

Contrary to what the press and folks generally (not here though) are suggesting, I believe the threats of cabinet revolt which appear led by Amber Rudd actually make a No Deal Brexit more rather than less likely.   Given that May brought her back into cabinet she must be utterly furious at Rudd and such can only heighten her resolve to Leave on 29 March no matter what.   In the current climate I simply do not see the majority of MPs going along with the Letwin/Cooper amendment which would surely drive May to seriously consider a snap GE; despite the latest polls giving the Tories an 8 point lead.   Perhaps due to Tory MPs’ fear of a GE, May will yet find herself this week drawing and pointing the very same gun that Major used re the EU, threatening ‘back me or its a GE’.

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[The VFM Addict]

Oh, I forgot to explain why I have a problem with the often used argument that we live in ‘a representative democracy’.    I consider it untrue and flawed.  Let us step back and consider the evidence in a fashion as would normally be applied in a court of law.

Firstly there is the semantics argument re the meaning of the term ‘represent’.    Does it mean that an MP’s vote is intended to represent the vote of the bloc of the electorate he represents (i.e. his/her personal vote in parliament being considered to be their vote) – or – does it mean s/he should represent the concensus views of his electorate (which is an entirely different thing).    Therefore simply attempting to construe meaning from the term is not conclusive.   Funnily enough the term ‘delegate’ (and we are always told do  not live in such a democracy) is surely linguistically more accurate for the way MPs insist our democracy works.   That is to say they are holding that we have delegated the responsibility for taking our decisions to them.    Do you see what I mean?

However, interpretation of meaning in this instance by construction alone is not necessary because there is documentary evidence.   The evidence that the electorate expects MPs to vote in accordance with their wishes rather than independently in their best interests, exists in that all parties and on occasion individual MPs, publish manifestos.    There would be no need for such were it that we were merely choosing a person to take decisions on our behalf.    Indeed an IQ test, professional qualifications and personal background would be more apt were that so.    It is the very fact that manifesto’s are published that identifies that what people are voting for is a published intent rather than individual competencies.    Plainly the vast majority vote for the published manifesto which is a statement of what that party or individual will do.   I note manifestos usually say we “will” do this or that.    Nothing suggests that such should not be the case.   Indeed if such is not the case then all manifestos should logically end with something along the lines of – “unless we decide once elected to do something entirely different”.     The manifestos including therefore no such ‘exit clause’ there is surely a clear social contract made.

I have long argued that manifestos logically should fall within the normal principles of Public and Administrative law as applies to the conduct of all Public Authorities (“PA”).   Under those principles if the conduct of a PA or that PA’s publications give rise to a ‘legitimate expectation’ then a failure to deliver on that expectation is usually held to be unlawful.

If one really wanted to be harsh morally and in that MPs receive substantial pecuniary advantage (i.e. their salaries on election) to secure election on the promise of doing X and to then do Y comes damn close to securing monies by deception.   Lightheartedly – Just imagine if a company employed one on a 5 year contract because one claimed to be able to program accounting software, and were employed/contracted to do such, if then on arrival you yourself decided instead to program for them a Dating App.   How long would you last?     Therefore one might even argue that MPs who act diametrically opposed to the manifesto commitments on which they were elected are in simple and clear breach of contract.

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[The VFM Addict]

I do believe in there being a solid and clear facility for an MP’s recall  but also that the recall threshold should set high.   In other words MPs could be recalled but only if there was overwhelmingly clear outrage at a level sufficient to motivate a very substantial percentage of that MP’s electorate to actually either go out and vote for recall or complete a postal vote.   Setting a high threshold for recall  would ensure it did not occur on a whim.

I would set the threshold to trigger a recall vote as being a simple petition by 15% of the seat’s electorate within a published one month window and the bar at that actual vote to require 25% of the seat’s electorate to vote for recall.

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[The VFM Addict]

Bob Williams wrote:

Dave wrote: – ” Steve, you vote for the person not the party. ” I could not agree more, that is how I have always voted. Party Politics is an abomination.

Of course such a statement that we vote for the person not the party is technically correct.   However, the broad church that can be found in most parties surely gives rise to moral dilemmas.

How does one vote if one has a local MP or potential MP who one admires for their personal integrity, competence, attitudes and beliefs but where that individual’s election would mean that a party whose cabinet or potential cabinet hold views are quite different and are entirely contrary to one’s own views and priorities?     Is this not the dilemma that many currently face with Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell?    I hear it often from folks that they are life-long Labour voters but can’t vote Labour while they are ‘in power’ in the party.   Indeed  I spoke to one friend from just down the road in Ealing last week.   He has voted for Steve Pound consistently for twenty years as much personally as by party but says he won’t again while the aforementioned unholy trinity are in place.

Despite the above and in part as an aside; I also read something once that made me chuckle and ever since has been something which I believe to be in the main true.   That was that most voters are so married to a party that they would vote for a parrot on a stick provided it was wearing the correct colour rosette.     Come to think of it and looking around Parliament its not too difficult to conclude that in many constituencies that is exactly what happened last GE.

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

[The VFM Addict]

With the (paper) TIGGERS as with many MPs they are simply egomaniacs.   They believe that their electorate voted for them more so than for a party.    So they think it their right morally and not just legally to stay put.   The reality is of course that few MPs win a seat personally.   In almost all constituencies a parrot on a stick could win just as long as it was wearing the correct rosette.    Not one of them stands the chance of winning on their own in the way Frank Field does.    All of them are political pygmies while Frank is a giant of integrity.

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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

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