@thevfmaddict
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I went to one of the best state Grammar Schools in the country, Sloane Grammar in Chelsea. It had a superb record of academic achievement. Four of classmates from my year of just 90 pupils now hold professorial chairs. Yet Alan Johnson who was two years my senior (and yes he had those bags under his eyes even as a teenager) says it did him no real good. Plus two lads of the year below me were charged with murder for ‘queer bashing’ on Wimbledon Common and found guilty IIRC.
So even grammar schools are no protection from falling in with the wrong crowd; which in any event is very often down to one’s associates outside school anyway. All in all I am not sure Diane Abbot’s answer holds up. That said I’m amazed Diane Abbot managed to at least make a good fist of an attempt to defend her actions. That’s something she is rarely ever capable of.
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Ed, I think you ought to take a close look at this page re Lend-Lease especially the Repayment Section. The loan was Interest Free; not bad when we took 60 years to repay it. Also much was sold to us at just 10% of its nominal value. Realistically such adds up to as close to a ‘kin gift as it gets without being such. I can’t imagine the EU ever being so generous even if we remained a member.
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I seem to recall the Yanks gave us Lend-Lease when we needed it in WW2
They GAVE us sweet FA, we had to pay in terms of servitude and money. In fact iirc we only finally paid it off in 2006.
I thought the fact that I included the word ‘Lease’ made clear that I was not saying it was a gift. But to put it beyond question that gave us a HUGE line of credit when we needed it. Belgium on the other the hand would not even take cash, which we were ready to pay for the ammunition our troops needed for the Falklands. Any way you want to look at it a buddy who won’t sell you the ammo you need is no buddy in my eyes.
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+1
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I seem to recall the Yanks gave us Lend-Lease when we needed it in WW2 but our Belgium ‘friends’ wouldn’t even sell us the Ammo we needed for the Falklands.
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So we have to wait until we’re out on a hard Brexit – thank you for not saying clean – to prove if the country is totally trashed or not. Seriously? What will you do then? Say sorry you were right, I take it all back? .
Such of course relies on the premise that Remainers are right and Leavers are not. Of course the reverse is equally true. And as you go to extremes in that paragraph I will also but in the reverse direction. When we Remain and your offspring are conscripted into an EU army meeting their ends due to such will you wave the EU flag and shout hurrah? The EU army that Remainers said during the Ref debate would never happen but now which is fully scheduled.
If anything you surely prove my point. The debate remains two diametrically opposed positions that will continue to rip this country apart far more than you worst dream of what a hard Brexit would be like. That is the biggest threat to the UK. The two views can only be resolved once we ‘know rather than think’ which is correct. We need the data, the concrete evidence, don’t we? If you can think of any way to get that hard concrete evidence without a hard Brexit to see what its effect truly is, I am open to your suggestions.
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Actually, I’m not of the opinion that we have nothing to worry about. There is a small global warming trend which may be cause for concern. But my position is that it is not predominantly down to us and is far more the natural cyclical pattern of climate change seen for millions of years. So I guess in the end I am of similar mind to you because worrying regarding something you can do nothing or virtually nothing about just ain’t worth it. In any event we’ll probably get smashed to pieces by a wayward asteroid before climate change ever wipes us out…..LOL
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I think only the press are using the word lie. The argument is is that his stated reasons for proroguing Parliament – getting ready for a new Queens Speech – were clearly for far too long and the timing was somewhat convenient. Also is it right to deny Parliament the right to deny scrutiny of the executives actions at precisely the time they most need to? The public are not fools, everyone knows this isn’t a happy accident whatever he may be able to get away with legally or morally. For some it’s just what they want because they think it will ease the passage to another result they desire, but be careful what you wish for. When it works against them they will rue the day because the genie will be out of the bottle big style and can be wheeled out at any time. The executive cannot be allowed to shut down Parliament at will and for any length of time they chose, I don’t care who they are or whatever the reason. These are the actions of a dictatorship, pure and simple. I don’t care if you voted Leave or Remain, nobody voted for this trashing of the running of the country. If this had been mentioned at the time nobody would have believed it could get to this. I think we all believed a consensus would be found and we would leave in an orderly fashion that wouldn’t cause too much damage. Had that happened we would be out by now and on to the long term relationship. What have we got? More divided and that’s been a cynical tactic by a handful of do or die (mostly) right wing evangelists who saw the chance to hold everyone to ransom to get the extreme result that suited them. The language of these people has been to vilify and smear those who oppose them aided and abetted by the more excited parts of the popular press. That includes our judicial system. Going back to a theme of a year or so ago it’s clear we need to overhaul the entire political system and may be it’s time to get a written constitution. As much as I support the Royals you have to question why they are involved in the process if it’s just a rubber stamping exercise – and I cannot see how it can be anything else. The Lords clearly needs sorting as it can be stuffed at will by whichever side needs to. I’ll confess I have little idea about the working of the judiciary but from what I’ve seen I don’t think they are a problem and I don’t believe anyone wants a politicised one like the have in the USA. Interesting Times indeed.
C’mon now, Dave, the procedural rule book was smashed asunder by Bercow even before proroguing took place. So gloves off and all that. And vilification of each side by the other dates back to the Ark in Brexit terms since before the Ref. It has ever since been, has it not, Civil War minus physical weapons. Certainly the old Left v Right political divide was the first victim suffering near fatal injury and I cannot see that returning to good health any time soon; and Jo So-So’s Lib-Dem positioning merely reaffirms the new battle lines. Indeed given that she declared that even if there was EURef2 and Leave won again she would not accept the result; I’d say that such reaffirms that democracy is, even if not yet dead, is currently in a deep coma.
I said long, long ago that I didn’t see this war ever ending until we were out totally out (i.e. a full hard Brexit) because only then will all sides see by hard data which side is right. Until then I simply cannot see that a civil war which is founded ultimately on theoretical projections and suppositions (by both sides) has any chance of ending. Can you? Isn’t it true that both sides will fight on savagely until having to concede being defeated by concrete data? And to my mind it remains that that concrete data can only ever derive of experiencing a total break rather than both sides proffering what they ‘think’ it will be like.
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Given Cameron’s revelations it seems PM’s do at times tell HM what they are really up to. There is of course no evidence whatsoever that BoJo lied to the Queen. There were no witnesses. He may have been quite open stating that in his opinion the route he wanted to travel was in the public interest. Hence we can never know whether he lied to HM or not. No-one can even know on the balance of probability; unless HM speaks out in full which it is very unlikely that she will. I do note though that the palace has stated it is displeased with Cameron’s revelations but not a word re BoJo. One might think that if BoJo did blatantly lie to her then similar ‘noises’ might be heard in order to protect her good name.
The above said, I concede readily that it remains that he may have lied to Parliament or been economical with the truth giving only one of his two reasons (perhaps even only the lesser one) as to why he was proroguing.
Of course PM’s, as are Chancellors, are to a degree allowed to be economical with the truth in the open arena that is Parliament, where they believe it to be vital in the public interest to do so (e.g. War, the Economy, etc.). This executive authority is possibly arguable in this case on the ‘No threat-No better deal offered by the EU’ rational. The proroguing of course did not throttle Parliament entirely as the Benn Bill proves and there will also be time once it re-opens for Parliament to act. All the proroguing did in reality was to restrict time somewhat thereby racking up the ‘possibility’ of No Deal occurring and thereby apply some extra pressure on the EU. It was therefore, I would argue a relatively balanced option both applying additional necessary pressure to the EU but still leaving parliament sufficient time to act if it desired.
This is a tack I myself would have argued with the SC as it is viable but it seems the government did not use it; although some arguments tendered by it hint, albeit remotely, at such.
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Thinking of yesterday’s fun-fest in Luxembourg I started to wonder why their President was so rabidly a Europhile. Then I remembered. Luxembourg is the biggest per capita recipient of EU funds receiving over twice as much as any country that surrounds it. But that only got me wondering even more.
Luxembourg is the second richest country in the world by GDP/Capita. With a GDP per capita greater than all of the middle east oil states other that Qatar. It astoundingly cash rich per head of population. So why does it receive so much EU funding? Indeed, over 5 times as much EU funding per capita as does the very poor EU state which is Bulgaria.
Remind me again what nationality is Junker?
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How NOT to make friends and influence people. Amazing !!!
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IF the untrustworthy BoJo has got an Ace why wait to reveal it? He cannot afford to just spring an outrageous Ace on either the EU or Parliament. If it is something that no-one has previously mooted then he will need time to sell it. Lets face it, he has proven that he is both mendacious and untrustworthy, so he is going to have to do a lot of convincing before anyone will accept his words.
I though I had made that clear. It may be something that could be blocked by new legislation if the Remain parliament had time to again grab control and legislate. I’m not sure either that it would be something that needed to be sold to anyone in Westminster or the EU. More likely a legal loophole that no-one has yet spotted. I expect the masquerade of going for a deal to continue a little longer – setting up the ‘Well I tried’ defence before going nuclear. I note that currently somewhat different ‘leaks’ are being fed to the Guardian and Telegraph they can’t both be right.
Of one thing I am sure and that is that both BoJo and Cummings know that if N.I. is left adrift; if we don’t exit on 31 October of if a rehashed May’s WA is tried then TBP will eat the Tories alive come the next GE not least because they’ll have fewer canvassers as Tory activists revolt. I just don’t see Boris wanting to go down in history as the one who destroyed the Tories. Something is surely afoot. I’ve been convinced of that since they suddenly dropped the Filibustering in the Lords. No reason to have done so unless they spotted that the that legislation was fatally flawed in some way. If they did spot something then it would indeed make total sense to let it pass because as the old maxim goes never interrupt one’s opponents when they are making an error. But I say again I could be reading all the signs wrong. Only time will tell.
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Unless the mendacious BoJo succeeds in cobbling together a deal with the EU and Parliament his only option (other than breaking his word yet again) is to resign. The EU has stated that they will only deal with a PM, in that situation I CAN see a Government of National Unity pledged to sort out Brexit then call an election. Corbyn would be unacceptable as a leader, but someone such as Ken Clarke could lead it.
As I said before, unless there’s ‘an ace in the hole’ that no-one has thought of. Until then masquerade as if there’s no option so no-one looks for it and blocks it. The N.I. matter of the last 24 hours looks just like that to me. Sources ‘leak’ that the DUP are ready for an in-part N.I. only backstop but then Foster is adamant that is not the case. Classic magician’s misdirection. QUICK LOOK OVER THERE while I work the trick over here. I’m not sure that even the whole cabinet knows what the ‘ace in the hole’ is. But I think Javid does. This is being kept close to the chest so there are no leaks. After this N.I. misdirection I am more certain than ever that there is one. Only time will tell. I could be totally wrong of course but my gut feeling is very strong that I am not.
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Yet another thorn up BoJo’s nether end. The Scottish equivalent of a Supreme Court has declared prorogation unlawful. However, they have not ruled a recommencement of Parliament ahead of the London Supreme Court meeting on Tuesday next. Beeb link May had it easy compared with Johnson!
Not technically correct as regards Supreme Court. The Scottish Court ranks equivalent to the English High Court and Court of Appeal Civil. The UK Supreme Court (previously the Law Lords of the House of Lords) sits above all other UK courts.
However, the Scottish ruling hinges on perceptions. The Scottish judges ruled that there was no concrete evidence that the prorogation was for improper purpose but that from the evidence that was available such might be concluded. (A rather wooly judgement at the very least.) However, we have to wait and see what the Supreme Courts decision is. My opinion for what it is worth is that the Scottish Judges were fully entitled to reach such a decision. The burden in judicial review, it being a civil matter, is indeed the balance of probability. That said I am not convinced that the UK Supreme Court will desire to rule against the UK government using merely the civil burden. I have not yet searched but I would hazard a guess that past HoL or SC rulings may well set precedent that for government decisions to be interfered with requires somewhat more than that the civil burden be carried.
I’m at the High Court (Royal Courts of Justice on the Strand) on 8 October acting as litigant in person in a Judicial Review Renewal Hearing. Thank god the SC does not sit there and sits in the Middlesex Guildhall opposite Parliament. Otherwise the RCJ might have been media bedlam. I’m mildly nervous anyway. I’ve acted for myself before in civil matters at county court and always got the better of otherside’s solicitors winning all cases. But this time I’ll be up against a barrister or worse still possibly ‘silk’. The sole edge I have is that is that I know all 1000+ pages of the evidence inside out and the issues of law are not complex. So one might say that my chances to wrong foot the defendant’s case are multiple whereas the defendant’s chances of wrong footing mine are limited. Still, I love a challenge. So either way it will be fun (I hope) albeit very expensive fun if I lose.
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……. Rather than the ‘end of the beginning’ as Dave puts it this could well be the beginning of the end of the Union of the UK, especially when each of the smaller bodies sees their favourite Brexit items being negotiated away ‘for the greater good (of the Conservative party)’ e,g. Cornish fish, Welsh lamb, Scottish Fish etc. Nationalism will be rife.
The most compelling argument I have ever read from you as to why as to why ‘No Deal’ makes most sense.
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…….. And don’t give me any crap about the backstop. It’s temporary – get the deal done and it’s gone. ……………..
But Dave that is the very crux of the matter. With the backstop ‘a gun to our heads’ there is no prospect of getting a deal which is equitable to both sides. Macron stated such a while ago that if he did not get the fishing access he wants to our waters there would be no deal. With the backstop still remaining an option, and with such not only being no skin off the EU’s nose if activated but actually advantageous to them, there is no imperative whatsoever on the EU until they get exactly what they want and sod our needs.
I’m sorry Dave but I cannot for one moment believe you would ever go to a client and say I’ll accept any deal you desire because I’m not prepared to walk away. If that is truly your position I know a few folks who would love CCTV systems in their warehouses for £5.10p. If you are not prepared to walk away you get slaughtered, don’t you? The backstop makes an equally equitable deal utterly impossible to ever negotiate. Without it then possibly indeed probably a mutually beneficial deal would be possible.
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I don’t disagree with much of what you say, Dave.
As regards a ‘second letter’ it is perhaps a mute point because nothing prevents BoJo from making the same points which I suggested he could make in a second letter in person with the EU and member states at the 17 October summit. One way or the other the message can still arrive loud and clear.
Your analysis of how an election vote will go is not hugely different from my opinion. I simply cannot see though that the Tories will not remain the largest party in Westminster given that Labour will surely lose in its Welsh and Noth East Heartlands so BoJo will get first shot at forming a government post a GE. I would suspect that the Tories plus TBP and possibly plus also the DUP will be able to constitute a majority. Labour loses to the Lib Dems and to the TBP will surely make that a racing certainty.
On a very different tack, I am very sensitive to the difference between bluster and genuine confidence. There is something about BoJo’s words when he says he will not ask for an extension which embodies the latter. I am also aware of Javid’s words when interviewed on TV last Sunday. He was pretty clear that it was lawfully possible to circumvent the surrender bill but that he would not say how because to do so would be foolish. I’m sure he is right. Reveal it and the Remainers might well create legislation to thwart it. So if there is still a route to lawful circumvention then we are unlikely to know what it is until 17 or 19 October. Added to all these clues is the sudden decision not to Filibuster the surrender bill in the Lords. It was if somewhere a ‘light bulb’ had suddenly flashed on. Why did they concede passage through the Lords so suddenly and out of the blue when minutes before filibustering was the plan and was quite workable? There’s a ‘card in the hole’ somewhere here for sure. Something everyone is missing. I’ve no idea what it is but as with a ‘Black Holes’ in space its all that’s going on around them that tells you that they are there even though you can’t see them. Perhaps we’ll get more clues (not what the route to circumvention is but that such exists) at the Tory party conference. I’ll hazard a guess that the likes of Grieve etc., are also likely to be running around thinking – We’re surely missing something here what is it?
Finally, Jo Swinson, has taken another chance at a big bite out of Labour votes by declaring the LibDems will campaign on a Revoke Art50 ticket. So that will really drain Remainers from Labour while TBP to drain Leavers. No doubts in my mind that Labour, the only party after the Tories with a hope in hell of being the largest party, will be savaged at the next GE. And I mean hugely savaged.
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…… Perhaps if the purist winners hadn’t veto’d any chance of leaving on anything but their terms it would all be over long ago. ……..
IIRC it wasn’t the “purists”, ERG or whatever you want to call such that veto’d May’s WA as you seem to imply it was a majority of the house, multiple times.
@Ed,
Don’t worry if Corbyn gets in and given those he’s repeatedly called ‘friends’ we won’t miss out on the Middle East party that’s brewing we will simply be batting for the other side.
Jokes aside I’d say all that the last week has meant is that provided a pact is reached with TBP then the election in November will result in a massive majority for BoJo. ALL polling indicates this. The Labour heartlands of the North and Wales are no longer Labour. Remainers are moving to the LibDems and Leavers are moving to the TBP or Tories. I think that the likes of Grieve, etc., have only served to play into the hands of BoJo and TBP. My bet would be that BoJo writes the letter and adds a second of his own which the surrender law does not prevent him from writing. “Many thanks in advance for granting an extension if you do but it won’t be needed past November because by then I will have a majority for No Deal.” and “While we stay in I will not be appointing a Commisioner hence under the EU law the EU Commission will not be legally constituted and cannot progress any business while we remain.” A sort of political judo throw using the EU’s own weight against itself.
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You may be right. But do not those who have fought to thwart the original “once in a life time decision”, as we were told the referendum would be, carry major responsibility for causing things to drag on such that BoJo could grasp the reins. Remember- We should have been out at the end of March 2019. In which case there would have been no growth in The Brexit Party and BoJo would have had no shot at becoming PM. The moral surely is that Democracy only ever works when there is ‘losers consent’ without such anarchy follows – and has!
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Recognise any of these faces?
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