@sawboman
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To be fair £65 per outlet does not appear a royal fortune when you count the labour plus overhead plus parts, though when you are buying I know every penny counts.Still, it is only about the same as some monthly entertainment packages or so I am told.
I can see PM’s point, though would all that they want be available that way?A lateral thinking solution might be the best option, (though we do now have 8 TV aerial points at the moment).
Come to that how future proof would any of today’s solutions be? I guess it would partially depend on what services they plan on having over the next few years
Rule 1, everyone is different and there is no easy way predict how they will respond to changes. Even quite elderly folk will adapt to new items given the right support. The VCR did not phase father though he did find the digital era less easy to cope with, due to the frequent need to retune the !”£$%$%^&*()+ TV every few days. He wanted to watch sports so had a SKY box for sometime and Mum had her TV set in the kitchen, I need not say more. When the Sky box did something wrong he was less than happy, turn it off wait five; then turn it on again did not always work so every 6 months or so he resorted to the Sky hindrance desk where they did what he felt was their slowest effort to restore things. He was annoyed when the VCR no longer worked out the date correctly and everything had to be completely entered ‘long hand’. The machine’s date function only went up to a point in time before failing, it was probably well into the machine’s double digit age by then . He still used the thing in spite of its issues until well into his late 80s.
When he went into a home for the last few years he was well into his 90s having neglected himself after Mother died and he had a few falls, mother was 93 when she went. In the home he continued to use his PC and printer though without a phone line he made use of a mobile, though for voice only. Text was stymied by eyesight and the functioning of his hands and hand eye coordination.
Rule 2, people develop their own way to cope with changes, accepting what they feel comfortable using and blocking out things which confuse, feel wrong or do not deliver a value to their life.
Rule 3, the longer you survive the more personal rules you develop and the harder those rule are to adapt.
Well that is two diametrically opposed views!
Because all TVs have their own ways of doing things, I use the set top box most of the time and simply slave the TV to the box, It does all the tuning, recording and if needed pausing of anything. Even the internet on demand aspect is easier is easier using the box over the TV, though not showing photographs from the server when the TV is far better. So on a personal point, I wonder why your father is playing mix and match so much and wonder if he is making life harder. Having said that, we can all be slaves to habit and habits can be hard to break free from.
I should say that not all TVs appear happy to take instructions from other devices to turn on or turn off when wanted. Some of them need you to work hard and jump through hoops to get it working. It took me about 12 months to sort out what I wanted, though I admit to spending almost no time at all dealing with the issue.
John, OK at least that is not a problem and perhaps useful to know for the future. Maybe that is why some TV <-> drive combos do not work well.
Richard
Until mum got Netflix and Amazon Prime I used an old ssd in an enclosure hooked up to mums TV so she could record stuff from her Samsung TV. Before you buy anything do some googling, not all HDD’s play nice with all TV’s, same goes for flash drives.
Was that down to some USB drives drawing their power from the TV and the TV not really supporting the requirement? If so device with its own power supply might avoid that issue, but as ever suer experience should be a guide. I also wonder what drive formatting the TV would understand/accept, that could be another point to check.
I am inclined to agree with you Bob on this one. Some cowboys were still operating very recently, one called me a month or two back though I also agree with Ed. It has long been the case that you will not get FIT if the installer is not registered or the paperwork is not up to standard. The cowboys do not care, they have a sunset to ride into and that is your problem. I do feel some of cowboys might have moved onto fitting SMETS 1 ‘SMART’ (i.e. rather dumb) meters now.
There may well be the cell level monitoring you suggest but tbh I did not find it during my delving. Over-arching all this of course is a very simple user level interface, and shutdown/start-up controls. The house trips ‘should’ protect anyone working on the house circuit, but it is nice to know that there are ways of powering down a 6KwH box just in case!
I would be stunned if any of them had no monitoring. I even found a crude version in a NiCad battery pack from years ago. OK there was no feed back to a ‘main’ controller. Later on I found that there was a degree cell level monitoring via close coupled bit of electronics that tried to look after its own small bit of the bank, but replicated across all other bits. I have not studied more recent packs/controllers, though the mutter from those colleagues who still earn a crust suggests that they expect that level of management and reporting from the kit they manage and install – most of which is a bit bigger than UK domestic. However, at least one does also have tentacles into the hotter, more humid parts of USA where comfort still rules even off grid.
Clearly there is something screwed up in the procurement methodology. Who in hell’s name decided on a specification against which these devices fail to get tested? In the most basic way, if a widget is needed to work in mud, slime, heat, cold, wet, dry or whatever, those parameters need to be specified into the original contract. Then they can be made explicit test standards, a failure to meet the standard means a failure to sell the widget. In the case of a rifle, being able to fire straight in all of the above cases would appear to be a prime, testable need that must be verified before acceptance.
I suspect that the real issues is not that the specification writers are not up to their job, but that the specifications are drawn up not by those with any interests in the usefulness of the widget, but by those interested in both financial and political objectives of making money and keeping friends sweet.
Revolutionary new crap is still crap if it ends up less usable than the clapped crap that went before.
Incidentally I see the Germans also have an in service device availability, it is not just us.
Steve, my left shoulder was giving me gyp all night and into most of today. Yesterday I had two more vaccinations to boost the activity that my spleen used to provide: Meningitis B and C. One in each shoulder: whilst the right one is unbothered, I kept turning onto my favoured left side last night and waking up with pain in my left. Combine that with the Prostate-inspired 3x toilet visits per night, and I seemed to be awake all night, until awoken from 2 solid hours by my dear Gert. I recall having jabs for various Eastern postings during Army service, and it was always the left side shoulder that reacted worst. Chemo again tomorrow, one more week after that takes us up to a week’s holiday in a quiet Suffolk village lodge. I am looking forward to that. I like Suffolk and Norfolk.
Bob,
I hope it went well.
My wife’s chemo went well with a cherry on top. She met a few who are now on tablets have previously opted only for radiotherapy and not been a clear as they might have hoped. Hence the ongoing battles with tablets as their troubles have spread and cannot be solved, only ‘managed’. She is glad she did not opt to avoid anything to give herself the best chance for the future.
I am glad she does not have to drive at the moment as one treatment contains enough alcohol to put her over the limit, there are warnings on that and the other drugs demolish boundaries while giving almost reckless drive to do things and talk. She was up at 05:00 this morning rushing about and not always getting it right along the way.
I am not suggesting that the battery management system should be user accessible, in fact ways of controlling that management interface are essential, though we are all aware some restricted or controlled interfaces do have a habit of being opened up, not always the way everyone might want.
However, a user interface to the building management aspects might be required if you want the user to have some sort of control over time of day, the prioritising a power sources etc. If you throw in power costs management , ‘charge up now for only 50% of normal’ the game really could change. Would you need an interface to an external system, etc.? You would probably want to ensure that was not given external access to the battery management functions, that is where the clever stuff would be needed. Build it in at the start and you should be fine. Get the set up built by Wyatt Erp’s Nemeses 2018 Inc and you are on your own. A typical IOT, (or more realistically named IDIOTIC Internet Direct Integration of Threats Including Chaos) device should not apply for the role.
Looking back a few years I could sit at home and log into all sorts of systems in other countries and do all sorts of things that I would seriously hesitate to have access to these days.
While we share a more or less common view that there are some things even semi skilled users should be totally bared from accessing we are only expressing that stand point in different words, not different philosophies. Do many dismantle their gas boilers, TVs or PVRs and they have far less potential for harm. Besides one access already being illegal.
Richard it IS basically a system management controller, the only problem being that the ‘old’ typical requirements were geared towards yachts in harbour/sea options and farm management big P/V systems. Domestic requirements are different and not normally addressed very well — an opportunity for someone! Most of the stuff the controller does you don’t fiddle with unless you are an inveterate risk-taker e.g. rate of charge, rate of discharge, hysteresis curve for these rates, temperature cut-outs and a whole lot of other things. The manual is around 200 pages and HND/graduate level reading as is the off-line set-up trainer.
Ed I think most if not all of us are aware that the batteries of today and even more so of tomorrow are very different to the crude device used yesterday and beyond. If not we have only to recall the problems that they can cause. Modern systems should monitor the health of ever cell during charge and discharge etc. That is already one master load to get right or suffer. Incidentally I understand that a cell change let alone a full battery change can require the recalibration of the charger.
The functions relating to output and input management including the source to use for running the premisses as well as the battery, e.g.use battery, mains, solar or wind for the building, time of day consideration, etc.? That is a whole different bag of marbles. I venture that is one with its own set of complexities and more importantly its own set of dependencies. Get that wrong and the desired results will not be obtained, ever. Though possibly one or two unwanted effects will emerge. Hence my snide reference to the TSB implementation and testing crew in a previous message.
Second subject from yesterday, my hospital visit was ‘interesting’. I am on track for a battery of tests and investigations following the GP’s urgent referral. The hospital group is one of a dozen who are recruiting for the piloting of a new screening process. The current one has too many false positives and more worryingly too many false negatives. So one of the first steps was to give me my ‘recruitment pack’ all pre filled out and ready for action. As my wife is already the victim of the false negative syndrome from her problem, (at least three failure to detect over 4 months) I am gung-ho for any improvements that can be brought in to any and all screening activities.
Steve, due to deterioration and delayed spinal treatment on a good day I can turn my head about 90 degrees to the right but only about 45~50 degrees to the left before it becomes a balance between need and discomfort to go further, Happily I have good peripheral vision so can see a way before I even turn at all so side detection does not require full movement. The right arm was not too bad over night and while sore this morning – no heavy lifting it caused me no issues. I was worried as it went with a bang when I was lifting, I am hoping it had not damaged the muscle root or tendons, I did that once with one of the quadriceps and it still has a narrow in the middle from about 56 years ago. That took months to start to settle.
Ed, to be honest I did not really think about domestic battery uses and nor realise that the batteries were so tiny. I had been used to things that were, shall we say a bit larger in the past. Cells that were the size of rooms and batteries that used whole floors in some cases. I can see your idea about garages; though since the double garage is below the bedroom I am not sure I would want to test its fire barriers quite that well. Still it does make it slightly more appealing for those who have the space. The utility feeds are already located in that area reducing the possible installation issues. I still feel that flat dwellers need not apply. A central battery room for their building would make more sense, though well designed and then well maintained fire management would be essential. The regulations would need some very explicit processes to ensure anything approaching acceptable performance.
Interesting points about the controller, though perhaps it needs to be more in the nature of a system management capability than a minimal function battery controller to contain the functions you suggest. They do appear to be pretty basic minima for a minimally useful but functional system. Getting the software to perform as needed could be a slight issue, TSB could give guidance on methods processes, software houses and testing processes, NOT to use.
As you said, a software controlled beast should not be excessively hard or costly to build. All in all a more exciting and realisable prospect than I thought at first look. Though, one I feel too old and troubled to take on at this stage.
I thought Renault were proposing a life of about 6 years for battery packs? Float charge/standby batteries have a cushy life, but I have seen the way they can go south when loaded towards EOL.
While some parts of the USA do have the space for batteries, many homes do not and I venture that some of their smaller lofts and flats won’t. After Grenfell, I am not sure that many would welcome a few more ‘bombs’ about blocks of flats either and there are increasing numbers of city flat dwellers these days, good luck to them all things considered.
After this mornings hospital appointment I did a supermarket dash, and ricked my shoulder with a bag, I shall watch this but stand aside from input for a while. Left handed one hand typing is a real pain.
I have to drive about tomorrow; wife’s chemo second go, plus sorting out disabled daughter. I need to be in circulation.
I set up a GMail account on my PC and view such things there. 90% of the time it is spam, and easiest to delete in Thunderbird.
Yes, I did that for mail, though Google regularly complain about security. A shame the PC does not also clear the marketing texts: I saw one text about an appointment after my appointment this morning.
Ed, we agree totally on this. I have heard accounts of generators being used not to produce power but as loads to help load balance ‘green flooded’ networks when production from uncontrolled sources exceeds the demands of power users. And yes, the CAPEX devoted to lumps of marginal capacity has increased very abruptly as unreliable sources have been brought into the mix. Nuclear loves a pretty static, or slow moving demand curve. Coal and similar fuel is pretty keen on similar hysteresis bound systems, gas takes a short spin up so is one of the more responsive with batteries and perhaps one day capacitors thought to provide a answer to near instant load smoothing filling in peeks in demand and adding load when things swing the other way.
Load smoothing by adding or subtracting consumer loads ‘on demand’ is a whole different bag of marbles, optimised for professor’s paper studies and water melons fantasies.
On the issue of texts and emails on mobiles, I saw a couple this morning on my phone from sometime yesterday. I might get round to reading them in a hospital waiting room later today. If they were urgent they would have rung and if they were urgent yesterday, they will not be urgent today.
Ovens, Washing Machines and Tumbler Driers are the major consumers. As you say the rest are immaterial. The Smart Meter just allows choices – for example a text from the Energy company saying “Using your Washing Machine overnight is free – using it now will cost you £1.50”. “Over a year this could reduce your power bill by £100” With an IoT coupled Washing Machine it would be trivial to action this from work. This is not totally a made-up example as I know such things are being actively considered.
Yes, Ed I know those totally theoretical but I accept data based examples; however they suffer a couple of flaws. To achieve that cost example the unit cost of power for all power consumed in the anti-socially timed machine cycle would need to be well beyond the normal level, perhaps as much as £1.8 per unit, however, the inconvenience factor of out of tune running is also likely to weigh heavily. As a side issue the text would likely not be spotted until hours after the event anyway – if signal conditions allowed for its delivery at all at home. As for the oven, running that out of phase with meal times is of no practical use to anyone. Throw in the idea of replacing everything with an IDIOTIC (Internet Directly Integration Of Threats Including Chaos) devices which would take too many years to contemplate amortising is a none starter; especially when they all go wrong because some sever in a foreign land fell over as has recently happened in several cases.
At one time we ran the washing machine and dishwasher over night using timer functions. Then we found out the then dual rate tariff was still costing 30% more to be much less convenient, that was discovered by accident when the meter went wrong.
The gas tumbler drier now uses a tiny amount of electricity.
Battery standby is an additional option to tackle the supply problems caused by dark wind-free nights. The other additional approach is to address the demand side by using the smart metering system to give users incentives to reduce their demand e.g. take a Kwh off current demand get 2Kwh of power later. A fully automated system would be costly and probably only apply to new builds/rewiring jobs so some form of user messaging system or smart phone/IoT setup is a more likely first approach.
I have never believed the hot air talk about slightly less dumb meters, (smart they are not) changing the way that people use energy. If I want to heat some food, I might have a choice of methods, oven, microwave, grill and so on, all with different performance and demand profiles. What I believe very few would consider is heating the food at 3:00 am or 10:00 a.m. or some other arbitrary time to control demand profiles. So it is with almost everything most folk do. Fridges, freezers and the like consume very little power and only very intermittently, so shifting their demand would not help by anything like enough. I have not tried to monitor our use half hour by half hour, but everything is switched on when needed and off when not required. Charging a battery when the sun shines by all means and using the battery at night – (but why convert battery DC to inverter AC when LEDs prefer DC?). The washing machine on a cool wash uses marginal amounts of power, the dryer runs on gas anyway. The only KW style consumer I can think of is the kettle which runs for perhaps 3 minutes at a time a few times a day, so not a huge potential for time shifting there. The studies I saw reported related to industrial users which were then extrapolated to domestic users.
Steve, Those skilled in the issues noted as points 1~ 3 have already defined them as questions seeking answers. If I had a battery backed system then I would expect the situation in your response to 4, but would you be happy to have your resources co-opted into a cooperative that defined how it was charged and its stored power was used as some have proposed. If not how do you propose area system supply battery centres would be funded? They are not cheap. The £11 billion new meter farce is already one farce too many for some with its recycled SMETS 1 items still being fitted. Germany already had problems with unbalanced supply issues, at one point offering power at give away prices to help absorb output and as I said, Spain has severe limits on domestic deployments in an effort to stop their systems suffering .
Like all magic bullet solutions there are always more than two sides to the issue and usually more pork barrels to scrap.
1) Should batteries be owner occupied items where they pay the capex or should they be controlled by someone more central in a battery substation?
2) If owner occupiers own the batteries who should control their operating profiles?
3) Should batteries be used to fill in the peeks and troughs of supply such that they are always taking the top slice of power availability?
4) What do the batteries need to keep them healthy – might not align with anything else. Who pays if a privately owned battery fails early?
Germany has had some management issues with their network and Spain has apparently laid down many demands on Solar installations.
The green initiative insulating buildings has not always been a complete success, Grenfell is perhaps the most dramatic and worst example.
For many securing a payback or at least a recovery of investment before failure would be a key driver. The sands of my time are running out but I have never seen a scheme that would work well enough for me to take the risk. Too many dreams and not enough certainty for me.
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