Today's Project: HP N54L Microserver – Goodbye WHS

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  • #3343
    Dave RiceDave Rice
    Participant
      @ricedg
      Forumite Points: 7

      As many of you know I was an early adopter of Windows Home Server, way back in 2007. It’s never missed a beat and I’ve long forgotten the original hardware, a single core AMD and 1GB ram IIRC. It’s based on Server 2003 managed via a remote console and client PCs needed to install a connector app.

      A few years ago (2013?) I bought a Gen 7 HP Microserver; the N54L with a 2.2Ghz AMD dual core, 2GB of ram and 4 HDD slots. They have become a bit of a legend for punching above their weight. The o/s sat on a 500GB and the data on 3 x 1TB spinners in a pool with redundancy (WHS had it’s own way of achieving that called Drive Extender, long since ditched).  Over the years 2TB has proved to be ample storage.

      Whilst the server has merrily chugged away the PC world has moved on and a 64 bit Win 8+ PC with GPT drives just doesn’t work with the connector. Connecting to the data shares is becoming fraught, especially with Microsoft accounts. Add to that it’s way past any support from MS and I’ve been thinking for a while it’s time to retire it.

      So what to do? Whilst the drives in it are 4 to 5 years old they show no signs of bad sectors and the SMART data is OK. Apart from a bit of dust the rest of it looks like new and it’s never got hot thanks to the excellent HP engineering. The heat sinks are all passive but there’s a huge fan in the back of the case shifting air from front to back.

      I need some sort of drive redundancy but the o/b RAID controller only does 0 or 1.  I don’t really want the expense (and fiddle) of a PCI RAID controller nor Server 2012 and domains etc. I did think about a Synology chassis. The DS416j is £260 but I’d really want the DS416Play for the extra CPU power and that’s £375.

      So what can I do with the N54L? Server 2012 has Storage Spaces which allows you to pool HDDs in a very RAID like way but so does W10 and I can get that for a tenner. I’d heard the Gen 7’s are a handful with W8+ and requires a BIOS update but HP have long since hidden BIOS updates behind a warranty paywall. The HP ProLiant N40L BIOS modification guide http://tinyurl.com/hfvtps6 sorted that out. One tip the HP USB key maker doesn’t work with 10, don’t even try it. Use Rufus to create a bootable USB with FreeDOS, copy flash.bat, key and the rom files to it and run flash from the command prompt.

      After backing up all the data I wanted to keep it was out with all the drives, pull the motherboard out (fiddly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYxRme8wJeQ ), clean out the dust and add 4GB of ram from the spares box. Then flash the BIOS. Off to EBay and buy a W10 Pro licence key. Boot from my W10 Pro USB key, delete the partitions from all the drives and install W10 to the 500GB.

      Within moments of the desktop appearing it had downloaded and run Windows Upgrade Assistant which told me there was 4GB of update awaiting. Whilst that was downloading I got IE on the taskbar and downloaded and installed TightVNC as this will be a “headless” box with no KVM. As it’s W10 Pro I could just use RDP to remotely connect to it but I prefer a VNC app so the client doesn’t matter as much and TightVNC is free and good.

      After the update I set up Storage Spaces which is a total doddle if all you want is one pool of storage, but it can do much more http://tinyurl.com/j6djwa2

      I then created some shares such as music, photos and video on the new F: drive  and shared them using How to set up file sharing on Windows 10 http://tinyurl.com/nhy9mkl After that it was a case of restoring the data to the appropriate shares.

      EDIT. There is a write performance hit with my configuration of Storage Spaces as I chose a RAID 5 like set up with a parity drive. A dedicated RAID controller would do all the parity and optimized writing business in the background but as this is software the server infrastructure is used. When copying 20GB of MP4 files from my Synology NAS it averages 15 MB/s compared to 75 MB/s on the native SATA 5o0GB drive. The CPU is running at 25% and whilst the disk is at 100% the queue length is <5 so it’s not a total disaster. As a server spends more time reading files than writing them it’s only an issue when bulk copying to the storage pool.

      I’ve had no issues connecting to the shares from Windows PCs and also their Kodi app, more testing tomorrow on Android and Fire TV Kodi. Whilst we’re on about Kodi a huge chunk of the data I ditched was MP4s. Most of what I kept were recorded TV shows like Red Dwarf where the Kodi offerings are clearly ripped from video tape whilst mine are in the best broadcast quality. Still not like Full HD but very much more watchable.

      And addressing the speed of storage mentioned above, streaming videos just isn’t an issue and opening your average office file is near instant even over wireless.

       

      #3344
      The DukeThe Duke
      Participant
        @sgb101
        Forumite Points: 5

        LTT(youtube)  has the most insane server set ups, and he is about to breach his 80TB server with a petaflop server spread over 2 main clusters of 50 x 10TB drives and I think he said 1 other “small” 60TB think he said, also an 50GB ssd cashe.

        He uses 3 main services to achieve what he wants, I think I recalled he uses cent os as a back os, then two others I can’t recall.

        Thought I’d let you know as it’s the most insane server I’ve heard of, and I bet the most insane one you have seen in a small business.

        He had out grown his other one, in under 12months, and is moving from 4k archive to 8k so needs the space.

        His current workfolw server (not his archive one) set up is mad, lots of redundancy, and set up so multi users iirc 4 at a time gan max out 10Gbit, they use it for work  real time multi person editing. (I don’t know) I just know it’s stuffed with 500GB ssd’s.

        It’s nice when you have millions of YouTube followers, and oems are falling over them seven to give you $60k (cad) worth of hdd.

        I’m sure you have heard of LinusTechTips on the you tube.

        I recall him attempting to water cool his old office of one system, he ran copper around the office, and plumbed all his pc’s (cpu and gpus) in to it, to see if it would lower the ambient working temp in the room. Took about 3 months and barely worked.

        #3350
        dwynnehughdwynnehugh
        Participant
          @dwynnehugh
          Forumite Points: 0

          Dave – any chance you can put your post in English please?  :scratch:  :scratch:  :scratch:  :scratch:  :scratch:  :scratch:  :scratch:

          Lol!

          The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

          #3353
          Dave RiceDave Rice
          Participant
            @ricedg
            Forumite Points: 7

            OK I’ll have a go  :good:

            Windows 10 can do all that Windows Home Server did and will only cost you a tenner for the software. MS have made it easier (as well as cheaper) and there are many online “How To” guides out there for setting up data shares.

            As I was using previous generation hardware I had to get that up to date first, which HP didn’t make easy. Or you can start from scratch. Buy the latest Gen 8 server for only £127 after cashback http://tinyurl.com/hwhhc4k , 2 x 3TB drives for £155 http://tinyurl.com/jyomvrrb and W10 Pro for £10 http://tinyurl.com/jg6g9nu

            TBH these days I would point people towards the much more friendly Synology NAS servers but you still need to understand some terminology to get where you want to be.

            Most small businesses still need someone like me to get them up and running and don’t have any interest in learning what they can do with it. But neither do they want to pay for any support, even after it all goes Pete Tong and they have no backups.

            #3361
            dwynnehughdwynnehugh
            Participant
              @dwynnehugh
              Forumite Points: 0

              Thanks Dave, I’m still somewhat in the dark but you provided batteries for my torch!!  🙂  🙂  🙂

              The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

              #3364
              RichardRichard
              Participant
                @sawboman
                Forumite Points: 16

                I originally put my HP server and WHS setup in place because of a perceived need for a batter back up system for several computers, one of which was seen as key. After a short while that original imperative evaporated as the key ‘subject’ could no longer study any more. However, the backing up of machines has continued along with the storage of a small amount of data in the traditional server role.

                Would your set up still support the automated daily back up role which the WHS has automated for 5 Windows 10 machines?

                When Win10 first came out it was terrible with the connector software, however it does now appear to deal with it far more successfully.

                #3368
                doctoryorkiedoctoryorkie
                Participant
                  @doctoryorkie
                  Forumite Points: 2

                  Nice timing Dave. I was thinking about ditching my N54L and building a J1x00 (or similar) server.

                  I have a some questions.

                  1. How long are rebuild times?
                  2. How much space does parity use?
                  3. How does it (if it does) deal with uneven drive sizes?

                  TIA.

                  Laptop T420 i5 8GB SSD 2x Spinners Optimus GFX
                  HTPC 5350 8GB SSD 2x Spinners Antec 300
                  Desktop 2700K 16GB Revo x2 GTX570SC Antec900
                  Server N54L 8GB SSD 6x Spinners HD6450

                  #3370
                  Anonymous
                    Forumite Points: 0

                    Thanks for the write up, very informative.

                    Question: Why go the Windows way? Why not utilise Debian or something as the base OS?

                    #3372
                    Dave RiceDave Rice
                    Participant
                      @ricedg
                      Forumite Points: 7

                      If I was starting from nothing I’d almost certainly have just bought a DS216Play with 2 x 2TB WD Red drives and a 2TB USB drive for backup, but this was a repurpose exercise.

                      Why Windows? Because I know it a lot better than I do any Linux distro and now W10 Pro is a tenner any cost argument is gone.

                      I want something more than just a plain vile fault like FreenNAS. The plan had always been to check out Amahi, but some digging threw up problems like this and the fact it likes to be the DHCP and DNS server.

                      I’ve always had issues with setting share permissions on Linux boxes, it’s very arcane compared to tick some boxes and choosing options from drop downs.

                      Storage Spaces: I have no idea on rebuild times or how it deals with uneven sizes, but parity takes one disk. So in my 3 disk pool that’s a third of it.

                      Backup of PCs: The server is just the target for the backup software on the PC. I use the inbuilt Backup and Restore (Windows 7) but it could be your favourite backup app. I created a shared folder on the server called Backup and create a folder for each PC inside that.

                      Backup of the Server: I’m looking at this. One thing that won’t be backed up is the backup folder. Like my Synology boxes it’ll probably do a nightly data backup to an attached USB drive and a weekly archive to Amazon Glacier. Glacier works brilliantly with Synology but I haven’t tried a Windows client yet.

                      EDIT – one problem with  J1x00 (and AM1) boards is only 2 SATA ports as have most mitx boards. Might as well just get a Gen 8 HP G1610T for £129 after cashback. The Gen 9 Pentium G4400 is only £105!

                      #3373
                      blacklion1725blacklion1725
                      Participant
                        @blacklion1725
                        Forumite Points: 2

                        Good read all this Dave – if I’m right though the W7 backup and restore can only store one backup to a Network location (so no incremental backups) – not a probe if file backups are catered for separately I suppose.

                        I ran an N45L with WHS2011 for a while, but it was overkill for me. Good to see that W10 can be bent in different directions though.

                        #3375
                        Dave RiceDave Rice
                        Participant
                          @ricedg
                          Forumite Points: 7

                          Good point but the choice of backup client isn’t really the focus of this, I’m looking more at the server end where it’s just a recipient for whatever client meets your needs.

                          For the server itself (not the data) I may just image the system drive and keep that safe as barring windows updates nothing is going to change. I think that’s why servers are so reliable, that don’t have to put up with users installing and uninstalling software and generally dicking about.

                          #3391
                          DrezhaDrezha
                          Participant
                            @drezha
                            Forumite Points: 0

                            For Glacier – I’ve used it’s companion software before (S3 Browser) but Fastglacier might be worthwhile. Likewise, I believe Arq Backup works with Galcier (I didn’t use it – I was using it to backup to Google Drive).

                            "Everything looks interesting until you do it. Then you find it’s just another job" - Terry Pratchett

                            #3395
                            Dave RiceDave Rice
                            Participant
                              @ricedg
                              Forumite Points: 7

                              EDIT – perhaps a quick explanation of Amazon Glacier would help make sense of this post.

                              Amazon Glacier gives you storage at their data centres around the world. Speed isn’t an issue so it’s down to where you want (or may have to) store your data. There are 3 in the EU, Ireland, Frankfurt and now London. You choose a location in which you create a vault. That vault contains folders into which you can upload folders or files from your local PC. Your vaults are protected by a set of keys associated with your account. Most clients will let you compress data (saves time, space and $) and encrypt it. It’s called Glacier as it’s very slow to recover data from as it’s meant as an archive, not a general backup and restore app. Think offsite backup with the ability to keep all previous versions of files if you want. It’s extremely cheap, I’m currently archiving 2 small businesses plus all my own data and last months bill was $1.42, so just over a quid.

                              +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                              I had a look at Arq but as I’m going down the skinflint route I’ve decided to give Fast Glacier a go. It’s extremely easy to copy a folder to a vault but it makes you realise just how good the Synology client is.

                              There is no way to schedule a task in Fast Glacier but there is a folder sync tool with a command line option. Once the vault has been populated I’ll try that out with a small test vault and if I can get my head around it the Windows task scheduler should be all I need.

                              Also encryption and / or compression aren’t turned on by default and you have to create rules. These are very flexible and can be at region, vault, folder or file level.

                              So it’s free and powerful but can be complex if you’re new to Glacier. It’s also way faster than the Synology but that is only an issue when you create a large vault. After that each job is incremental so quick.

                              Well it’s been at it over an hour compressing and encrypting, working the CPU and this shows how cool it stays. Ambient is the temp at the fan exhaust not the room. That’s at about 12C (unheated integral garage). The Turion is good for up to 95C and 25 watt TDP.

                              HD 5 is the external USB drive, 0 s the system drive and 1-3 are the parity pool where the data is coming from.

                              N54L temps

                              #3408
                              Bob WilliamsBob Williams
                              Participant
                                @bullstuff2
                                Forumite Points: 0

                                I surprised myself by reading and understanding all that Dave! Maybe some of my gson’s rabbit has filtered into my brain… :wacko:  :scratch:  :yahoo:

                                Seriously, that would have made a good MM article, sorry to mention it but that is nonetheless true. First time I could say that here.

                                When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
                                I'm out.

                                #3415
                                Dave RiceDave Rice
                                Participant
                                  @ricedg
                                  Forumite Points: 7

                                  Well it’s hit the video folders and some big files, so it’s spending more time just shovelling parts of files onto the Ethernet rather than encrypting and compressing them. Temps are down to 33c core, 24c ambient and the HDDs by a few degrees. Have to say I’m impressed.

                                  Most of the time it’s approaching the maximum 10Mbps upload speed of my FTTC connection, but could still have another 40+ hours to go until it’s shifted the remaining 95GB. But as I said that’s only an issue for the initial upload, subsequent jobs will be an incremental file / folder sync.

                                  That’s why it’s best to get your folder structure right as any major reorganisation will be seen as a load of file deletion and additions. It’s not the $ cost, that will be trivial, it’s the time.

                                  #3422
                                  DrezhaDrezha
                                  Participant
                                    @drezha
                                    Forumite Points: 0

                                    I’ve considered using B2 recently as well (as in, the Backblaze storage). Only thing lacking is software to backup data to it! I could use the Synology – tempting as I’m beginning to creep towards my huBic 100GB limit on my Hyper Backup and B2 would be cheaper than upgrade to the 10TB version. In fact, currently, I don’t believe that I’m backing up all my data (such as music) as it wont fit.

                                     

                                    Only thing that’s put me off B2 (or Glacier or S3 even) is that they charge in $ and whilst the price would be small, I’d be charged a fortune in foreign currency fees! :wacko:

                                    "Everything looks interesting until you do it. Then you find it’s just another job" - Terry Pratchett

                                    #3424
                                    Dave RiceDave Rice
                                    Participant
                                      @ricedg
                                      Forumite Points: 7

                                      From my Santander Business Account: (Debit) CARD PAYMENT TO Amazon web services,1.45 USD, RATE 0,82/£ ON 03-01-2017  = £1.22

                                      The official base rate on that date was 0.8170 GBP = 1 USD so I don’t feel too ripped off 🙂

                                      It’s a heck of a lot cheaper and easier than any other way of doing off site “backup” but actually it’s a weekly archive against total disaster.

                                      The daily backup of files that warrant that treatment (and I don’t include my music, photo or video collections in that category) are to an external USB drive.

                                      #3430
                                      DrezhaDrezha
                                      Participant
                                        @drezha
                                        Forumite Points: 0

                                        The exchange rate isn’t to bad but I’d be charged an additional 2.9% percent on top of that. Admittedly, it’s not that much (probably around £0.20 as I think that’s the minimum).

                                        huBic was €10 for the year for 100GB so I went with that initially. I’ve still some wiggle room as I’m at 77GB used. In fairness, music etc is all kept at work usually.

                                        "Everything looks interesting until you do it. Then you find it’s just another job" - Terry Pratchett

                                        #3473
                                        Dave RiceDave Rice
                                        Participant
                                          @ricedg
                                          Forumite Points: 7

                                          Comparing a few years of Synology experience with half a lifetime of Windows experience I’ve learned 2 things.

                                          1. Just how powerful these cheap Wintel HP servers are and just how far you can go with Windows 10 as an o/s to run them.
                                          2. Just how easy it is to deploy a Synology and the breadth and ease of use of it’s available apps.

                                          I haven’t changed my mind on the advice to buy Synology if starting from scratch and I still can’t emulate Cloud Station. They make it so easy to get the essentials up and running quickly but still with very powerful features.

                                          I have been pleasantly surprised by just how far Windows has come and what you can do with (relatively) low power hardware, but of course it’s the availability of £10 Windows Pro that has made this viable. The full whack £140 pays for the difference between the entry level DS216se and the DS216Play capable of transcoding or a 4TB NAS HDD or 2 x 2TB.

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