Phones for Evidence

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  • #32980
    keith with the teefkeith with the teef
    Participant
      @thinktank
      Forumite Points: 0

      Duno if you noticed on the news tonight but the police R now asking with consent to access your phone for evidence in crime such as rape.

      I was listening to radio4 and some of the Rhetoric the women was coming out with to basically say thats unfare in sex crime was a bit odd?

      Anyway this is nothing new a lad 17yr old in our village was taken to court for sex crime. Underage sex. He got away with it because the girl text him that she was 16 when she was 15.

      And so on and so forth etc.

      #32982
      RichardRichard
      Participant
        @sawboman
        Forumite Points: 16

        I saw the report and was aware of a number of such recent cases. They had been widely reported after cases went to court and rather damning evidence of prior contacts only came to light in the middle of the trial so wasted everyone’s time.

        I can understand the concern being vocally and loudly expressed by some claiming that surrendering the phone could put some off. I balance that by feeling that going to court and then being found out would be a far worse problem.

        I am aware that some ‘under age’ cases come about because (1) a parent finds something out, (2) a participant has a later attack of cold feet or (3) earned a ‘name’ for themselves amongst their peers. (I know one case where the jealous parent reported such a case, the couple have been a married husband and wife couple for many years.)

        On balance, if there is not full disclosure before the start of a criminal case, something emerging that should have had a material impact can only cause severe outcomes when it does see the light of day.

        Keith, I agree with you, however weak or bad a subject, you can always find someone ready to distort the facts and bellyache on antisocial media – I include the press, radio and TV within that epithet.

        #32985
        RichardRichard
        Participant
          @sawboman
          Forumite Points: 16

          Keith, to clarify what I was saying I was referring to the cases which go foul because of non disclosure of material facts. I am also aware that the police, (do nothing in too many reported cases) or the Criminal Protection Service, also known as the CPS have a lot to answer for, with too many reported cases not followed through or not followed through correctly. It is no wonder that far too many have no faith whatsoever in what passes for a very broken ‘system’.

          I am not fully convinced that rape should really be such a special criminal pathway item; it is assault with a weapon and intent, without being too graphic.

          Does breaking it out to its own special pathway work for or against likely success?

          Currently the record is self damning.

          #32989
          The VFM AddictThe VFM Addict
          Participant
            @thevfmaddict
            Forumite Points: 0

            A bit of an aside but still a fascinating fact is that the chances of someone tried for rape being acquitted rise in proportion with the number of women in the jury.    There are of course three possible reasons  reasons for this.    (1) Men are more likely to think bad of other men, are naturally more protective of women are and therefore convict.   (2) Women distrust other women more than they distrust men and therefore acquit.    (3) Its a bit of both.

            My suspicion is that phone records will cause the number of convictions to fall further not just for the reasons suggested by others above but because even the slightest sign of either general promiscuity or ‘come on’ towards the accused in phone records can only lead to the CPS having even worse cold feet about prosecuting.    I think that’s very unfair to women because even the most promiscuous of women can still be raped and a ‘come on’ does not automatically mean there will be consent at the time of the Act.    As Max Miller said in one of his famous rhymes;

            ‘I like the girls who do.  I like the girls who don’t.  I hate the girl who says she will and then she says she won’t.  But the girl I like best of all, and I think you’ll say I’m right, is the girl who says she never does but she looks as though she…Here!’    

             

            _______________________________________________________________________________________

            During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

            #32990
            dwynnehughdwynnehugh
            Participant
              @dwynnehugh
              Forumite Points: 0

              The whole purpose of ‘advance disclosure’ to the defence is to ensure that the ‘suspect’ and his legal team have all the available evidence which would assist them to obtain a not guilty verdict and not just release evidence which would tend to show guilt i.e. the police /CPS are duty bound to give the defence their evidence if it would assist the defence case. This does not always happen for various reasons.

              Unfortunately we have seen several cases, as in the one making the current topic of this post, where mobile phone evidence has been disclosed at a very late stage when the trial has actually begun.  The investigation of rape cases can be a very long and protracted matter involving a large number of offices, scenes of crime officers, family support offices and backroom staff feeding computers. Rape is indictable only and crown courts, judges and staff etc cost money. It’s our money.

              If there has been banter between the perpetrator and the victim then I say it should be disclosed as soon as possible even if that does reduce the possibility of and trial let alone conviction.  Let us also remember that the victim will be protected and retain her anonymity however the accused is generally splashed across the pages of the gutter press.  It is not a level playing field.

              Rape is a despicable crime, but please remember there are some pretty despicable females out there as well – I’ve dealt with some.

              The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

              #32997
              Ed PEd P
              Participant
                @edps
                Forumite Points: 39

                It is a difficult situation.(I have used gender neutral language as I believe there is a significant percentage of cases where the males are victims and the perpetrators are female, and obviously there are homosexual rapes as well.)

                I can see the problem if a victim states that they had absolutely no prior contact with the individual then there is an understandable reluctance to lay their personal life out naked (so to speak) to third parties.In this case I do not see why the victim should not just give their telephone provider permission to search for any contacts made between the two phones. If no contact in the prior 90 days then there should be no need for the police to ask to search the victim’s phone. I do accept that social media is quite different and may need a new requirement for Facebook etc to provide information on any 1:1 contact between the two.

                On the other hand there have been far too many alleged rape cases where the parties know each other and it appears that the victim is seeking revenge for being spurned or something. The accused then has a devil of a job to prove innocence if there has been any sexual contact during that period. A nightmare situation for the innocent person. This is equally a nightmare situation for any person who has actually been raped, but I think that justice demands that all available evidence be examined.

                #33002
                Bob WilliamsBob Williams
                Participant
                  @bullstuff2
                  Forumite Points: 0

                  I have kept this story in my head since I was a teenager, it brings back unwanted memories that always surface every time an ‘under age’ case hits the news.

                  When I had just reached 16, I met a girl who was so well developed that she could have been taken for the 16 years she herself claimed she was. Raging 16 yo male hormones almost led to disaster for me at a party, until my mate came through the bedroom door and gave me the news that she was, in fact, 13. I left in a hurry, she left the party in tears. It had all been orchestrated by the lad whose house it was and he was older at 19.

                  Having thought no more about it, I was about to return to sea for my second trip, when I was arrested for sexual assault and almost charged with rape. The girl was so naive that she had let the 19 yo lad talk her into accusing me. Only the evidence of two mates at the party, and the medical evidence that she was still a virgin, saved me. The girl actually broke down and confessed it was all a lie, but I could never blame her too much for it. She was as much a victim as I was, just two kids caught up in something engineered by someone else.

                  I saw the lass again over the years, as we both went different ways in life. I met her once in Mansfield town centre, with her two children and she tried to apologise for that time. I put her mind at rest, telling her it had not affected me in any way, we were both just too young and in her case much too young. I made her smile and I made her laugh in that conversation: she left I hope with a weight lifted – certainly I did. I have to say that she was still a very attractive woman, and a little voice at the back of my mind was saying “What if…?” But I quietened it and went on my way.

                  I will always see these cases in the light of someone who could have been jailed for a crime that was punished more severely in 1961 than it is even now. Although I also appreciate that a genuine case of rape is horrible for the victim, especially so if the accused is guilty but will not plead guilty, which results in the victim having to go through the ordeal of the witness box. Cross examination by a determined defence solicitor or barrister, is definitely an ordeal.

                  I came so close to absolute disaster.

                  When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
                  I'm out.

                  #33005
                  RichardRichard
                  Participant
                    @sawboman
                    Forumite Points: 16

                    ED, Bob, I cannot but agree with both of you, with Bob getting the slight edge due to the highly personal and highly personal risk profile that attached. However, it does beg the question of how youngsters of either or whatever sex can be protected.

                    #33014
                    dwynnehughdwynnehugh
                    Participant
                      @dwynnehugh
                      Forumite Points: 0

                      Perhaps I should also add that the whole ethos of ‘advance disclosure’ was to ensure that all police evidence was examined and any evidence which could be of use to the defence was disclosed to them – subject to certain rules etc. etc.

                      Regrettably this became necessary when the police seemed to take it upon themselves simply to provide evidence which pointed to the guilt of the suspect and ignored anything that suggested otherwise. As a PI I have come across such instances where evidence for the defence has been simply ignored or not followed up. The whole purpose of the police and any of their enquiries is NOT to show guilt or otherwise but merely to gather the available evidence and present same to the prosecuting authority (CPS). Unfortunately in many instances the police appeared to have forgotten their main purpose or as in many cases new evidence came to light before trial. In those days such new evidence did not need to be disclosed to the defence.

                      Both in uniform and CID  my 100% total belief was in one of impartiality and even to this day I can put my head on my pillow at night still holding that premise. Unfortuantely times have changed,  police officers are now different, they are more stressed and overworked, less supervised which can lead to ‘cutting corners’.

                      The sole purpose of the police in relation to criminal investigation is to record the facts impartially and honestly ‘for or against’ the ‘accused’ and ‘victim’ . Too often in my time on CID there was always a small faction who would say “I know who did that …” and then spent a lot of time trying to prove their idea. (I could say that they would get the evidence to fit their facts – but in all honesty that would not be the correct wording here – SERIOUSLY).

                      I always asked one very very important question to myself “If I was in trouble with the police, how would I wish them to investigate me?” That was my standard and it stood me in good stead for 30 years.

                      The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

                      #33026
                      RichardRichard
                      Participant
                        @sawboman
                        Forumite Points: 16

                        @dwynnehugh that had the very honest ring of truth and a totally correct assessment of how things should be. I always believed that evidence has no opinion it should be gathered and allowed to reveal its story clearly – including where gaps have been left. I understand your feelings and can only wish that some of the fit up brigade had not transferred to the Criminal Protection Squad, (the CPS). Some of whose publicly rejected fit ups sounded more suited to the keystone cops than even Hicksville USA.

                        #33036
                        dwynnehughdwynnehugh
                        Participant
                          @dwynnehugh
                          Forumite Points: 0

                          I do feel that the CPS are much maligned quite unfairly as well. Agreed they don’t always get things right, but who on God’s Earth has never made an error of judgement?

                          Prior to my retirement in 2003 the rota sergeant would examine all process and ensure that all enquiries had been made, then with cut backs fewer sergeants and the investigating officer would deal with the CPS directly. A possible classic case of computer speak – ‘rubbish in, rubbish out’. The CPS are also under funded, under resourced and I do honestly feel they do their best with what they have – subject, of course, to their remit set down by the HMG as to their charging standards and the % likelihood of a successful outcome in any prosecution. Whilst it is very easy to criticise them, they too, like so many of us, have to work within a set framework set by those on high!!

                          The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

                          #33043
                          Bob WilliamsBob Williams
                          Participant
                            @bullstuff2
                            Forumite Points: 0

                            Dwynne, thank you for your post #33014, which was a better explanation of the law and its revised application than any of the efforts in the news media. I get the feeling that you must have been the kind of officer that my old dad called “a proper copper.”

                            Your last post #33036 points to what I have always thought about British Justice: it is blind, but that does not make it perfect, being subject to human influences and judgement from start to end, however that may turn out. The British people believed for over a century that our police force was eminently trustworthy and (a majority) supported its members without question. For more than 5 decades this reputation has been more and more under threat, until large parts of the populace are able to use the more humane and diverse approach of the force, to defy, abuse and attack officers as they attempt to perform their duties.

                            Overstretched and under-resourced forces are castigated for not being able to attend some crimes, when the truth is that they must prioritise the calls they get. Living in a very rural county I see this all the time: second largest county in the UK in terms of area, very low density of permanent population but with villages and the few towns spread apart by some distances. Holidaymakers and day trippers from inner cities and large towns invade the county, now for most of the year. Some of these are ‘chancers’ looking to steal and burglarise  homes, possibly stealing a car here to take home their loot.

                            The one thing that really worries – no – frightens me – about law enforcement in this country, is the prospect of a Labour government and Dianne Abbott ? as Home Secretary. ??

                            There Dwynne: you probably won’t sleep well tonight!

                            When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
                            I'm out.

                            #33047
                            dwynnehughdwynnehugh
                            Participant
                              @dwynnehugh
                              Forumite Points: 0

                              ???????

                              The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

                              #33049
                              Ed PEd P
                              Participant
                                @edps
                                Forumite Points: 39

                                I’m not disagreeing with the thrust of previous posts, but isn’t this all about obtaining full disclosure from the aggrieved party?

                                I would hazard a guess that there is no requirement in law for the aggrieved person to volunteer to submit their phones or any other evidence that may assist the defence. I’d also guess that such evidence could only be obtained through a subpoena. The reported facts probably only arise due to these constraints.

                                (I’m not a lawyer so I’m guessing like crazy in these respects)

                                #33050
                                dwynnehughdwynnehugh
                                Participant
                                  @dwynnehugh
                                  Forumite Points: 0

                                  Currently I do not think there is any provision in law that allows the police to seek evidence from the mobile phone of a victim, that is not the same for the accused where they can access records thoughbeit occasionally by means of a court order.

                                  Unfortunately over the years women had a very rough deal from the police when reporting a rape – “short skirt, low top – you were asking for it luv” thank God those days hopefully are long gone. In the past the prosecution barrister could spend all day enquiring into the sexual habits of the victim even if totally unrelated to the matter on trial. Those days have gone as well. Nowadays the victim ( I assume that to be a female) is protected and has her anonymity protected for life, the accused is not so lucky – his details are splashed all over the press and about 2 lines if he is acquitted. Some would say “he got away with it”, “no smoke without a fire”, in recent years too many people (males) have been accused of rape only for the trials to fall almost at the first hurdle. The innocent have their lives ruined and that also applies to a genuine rape where the accused is found to be ‘not guilty’.

                                  Rape basically is ‘sex without consent’ normally undertaken in private with both parties present, yet as far as I understand if the consent is withdrawn mid-act then rape is a real possibility. Generally rape investigation does not involve a large number of witnesses especially if committed in private. I need not dwell on the difficulty of proving the offence one way or the other.

                                  One does have to consider that post rape the female is requested to undergo an intimate medical examination for the purposes of gathering evidence. The accused will more likely than not be arrested at his home address in the presence of his wife and family members – yet might be subsequently shown to be totally innocent. Lives spoilt for ever.

                                  One thing that the UK does need is to extend the anonymity principle to all parties in a rape and the identity of the accused can only be disclosed on the return of a guilty verdict.  Even these days with social media, so may idiots are disclosing the identity of either those involved – some in this area have recently been prosecuted for disclosing the ID of a female in a well known sports case.

                                  The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

                                  #33060
                                  RichardRichard
                                  Participant
                                    @sawboman
                                    Forumite Points: 16

                                    @dwynnehugh your 33050 goes a long way to highlight the special issues that so called ‘sex crimes’ bring up. That they are surrounded by so much emotional baggage makes them such a minefield for all; it is not just the main players, the public run emotions high and dangerously so. For this reason I totally agree with your proposal that names should only ever be revealed when the burden of proof has been met. I am aware that sometimes that burden is somehow bypassed and that some shady activities can also go on, witness the case of the person sued for damages who short circuited that process by making themselves bankrupt to avoid the consequences of a court action.

                                    The case generated by the CPS to which I specifically referred was one in which a person burdened down with bags on his back and in his hands was alleged to put have put his hand up someone’s skirt. The claim was bolstered by a doctored video played at significantly reduced speed. This tainted ‘evidence’ was rejected by the court system. That an assault was probably committed was never disputed, that it was not likely to have been done by someone burdened down and apparently only ever within feet of the victim for parts of a second suggests that it was likely to have been someone else ,if it did in fact happen.

                                    As far as I am aware both the age of consent and the rape laws had their origin in possession of goods and chattels, females having been considered as such in past generations and in some groups still are today. Rape ‘damaged’ a possession so had to be punished to protect the ‘property owner’. Age of consent was supposed to protect the family silver going to the result of an under age and probably illicit relationship and so a whole new blame and emotion industry was born.

                                    For me it is far more simple; assault is assault and the victim needs the protection or even better restitution. Age of consent is a little more complex, in some cases both parties are so far as I have seen willing, in some cases undue pressure has been applied – though family pressure can subsequently create a false story to protect their little ‘treasure’. Note the idea of damaged possessions again. Thus then even if hard to prove in genuine cases, it is still a case of assault.

                                    However, I am very uncomfortable that simple fumbling and exploring, even if it progressed ‘too far’ should really be a criminal matter with probably both parties getting an early criminal record. The other issue is that for some the AoC (16)  is not really the ‘right time’. Some consider it too low for them, some consider it so far out of touch that they have done it all years before. Note: I am not in favour of over early activities, neither am I in favour of fire and brimstone threats, ‘though will not do anything like that under pain of fire and brimstone death’. Family support and carefully crafted guidance would be my preference. I did know several girls whose family support I later realised fell woefully short, though by that time they and I had moved far away from each other. However I realised that their actions had been leading them along risky pathways. I later wondered how things turned out for them. I last knew of them close to 60 years back, I hope things improved for their lives.

                                    #33074
                                    Bob WilliamsBob Williams
                                    Participant
                                      @bullstuff2
                                      Forumite Points: 0

                                      During my trip to a packed Skeggy on Sunday last, I saw what turned out to be a “date day” turn into a disaster for the male half. I was waiting for my missus to exit the toilet when an attractive woman possibly in her mid-thirties came out, obviously looking for the man who sneaked out from her left and ‘goosed’ her from behind in a very inappropriate manoeuvre. She screamed, whipped around and delivered a mighty slap to this idiot, then told him in no uncertain terms to leave and never bother her again. He left, obviously embarrassed and I hope, ashamed.

                                      My missus had emerged just behind the pair and the lady asked if she would be a witness, should there be any repercussions, probably was thinking in terms of denying the idiot further contact and/or any stalking. Anyway, we both gave her our numbers and agreed to support her if she needed us. She said that she met him online, agreed to a meeting and had been impressed by his life story: how often do we hear that one nowadays?

                                      That was one of those rare Skeggy outings full of incident, usually it’s almost boring.

                                      When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
                                      I'm out.

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