Wifi through 4ft stone walls

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  • #27029
    TipponTippon
    Participant
      @tippon
      Forumite Points: 0

      Hey guys, sorry to pop up with yet another question.

      My father’s landlord wants to extend his wifi through his houses. He owns three properties next to each other in almost a V shape. The walls between them are several feet thick and made of stone, and the outer walls seem to have been lined with metal mesh before they were rendered. Thanks to the houses being built at separate times, the two sides of the V are essentially separate buildings, with an external wall each and god knows what between the external walls.

      I put a wifi extender one side of a wall and went to the house next door. Standing the other side of the wall I could barely get a signal. I had the same problem placing the extender upstairs and downstairs, and along the side of the V that has internet. I thought about using an external adaptor in the garden, but there’s no signal there either.

      Short of running a cable between the houses or getting a second internet connection, is there anything I’ve overlooked?

      I’ve attached a Google Maps view of the houses. The red lines are the edges of his properties, the blue line is the separating wall between two of the houses, and the yellow line is the double thickness wall between the house with internet and the other two. The yellow dot is roughly where the router is. Thanks to the layout of the house, the router can’t really move from where it is.

      Thanks again guys 🙂

      #27041
      Dave RiceDave Rice
      Participant
        @ricedg
        Forumite Points: 7

        I’d put an AP in each loft on the underside of the landing ceiling.

        If there is mains in the loft they could be powered from there and only 1 cable run down to the router. If no mains then they will all need to be cabled back. The power could come from an appropriate PoE switch or the included power injectors. The PoE switch is the most elegant solution.

        Shopping list:

        N – 3 x Ubiquiti UniFi UAP £60 / Ubiquiti TS-5-POE TOUGHSwitch 5-Port Gigabit PoE Switch (60W) £85 or NETGEAR GS305 5-Port Desktop Gigabit Switch £15 and the power injectors.

        AC – 3 x Ubiquiti UAP-AC-LITE GEN2 AC1200 £80 / Switch with PoE TP-LINK TL-SG1008P 8-Port (4x PoE Ports) Desktop Gigabit Switch (53W) £60 or NETGEAR GS305 5-Port Desktop Gigabit Switch £15 and the power injectors.

        The reason for the different PoE switches is the N is 24v passive and the AC is 48v active (802.3 af).

        You’ll also need Cat 5e cable and RJ45 plugs plus drill capable of going through the dividing wall(s) in the loft. You may get away with external cable and hopping outside to get around the walls, but you’ll need a ladder and head for heights.

        Good luck with routing a cable (or three) into the middle of the house to get to the router.

        Broadbandbuyer will set up the cloud controller for you. Free for 3 years then £15 a year.

        EDIT As this is a business situation, just thinking about any potential GDPR issues if 3 different tenants can see each others devices, which they will be able to do.

        The APs can run 4 SSIDs so it would be easy to give each house it’s own SSID but they’ll still be in the same IP subnet. You could set up Guest protocols what would isolate each device and only allow any device to only access the internet but that would knacker any wifi printers etc.

        The way to do it would be with VLANs. I would only contemplate this with the AC as a managed 802.3 af PoE switch is available from Ubiquiti for £110

         

        #27044
        blacklion1725blacklion1725
        Participant
          @blacklion1725
          Forumite Points: 2

          Dave is there any issue with having the 3 APs (assuming they are daisy-chained with ethernet) taking mains power from three separate houses which are presumably on different phases of the mains?

          I know a “friend” (cough) considered giving a sky multiroom box to his neighbour and was advised against doing it because if this issue.

          #27046
          The DukeThe Duke
          Participant
            @sgb101
            Forumite Points: 5

            If the houses are older there is a good chance you won’t needed to drill through the attic, my nan lived in an old workers Terri e house and you could walk between the houses in the roof space.

            My current home (1911) isn’t full sealed either. It’s mostly bricked up but towards the top you could early feed wire through.

            We have a a cottage in the lower village, that has solid cobble stone walls and it destroys masonry bits. So figures crossed you can loop wire through gaps in the loft space.

            #27047
            Dave RiceDave Rice
            Participant
              @ricedg
              Forumite Points: 7

              BL it’s power over Ethernet so it’s all going back to the same place anyway.

              As a general point I have mesh networks out there that are by their very nature powered from different buildings. The same with building to building links.

              #27052
              RichardRichard
              Participant
                @sawboman
                Forumite Points: 16

                Dave, from what Tippon said the connection between houses one and two and three is via a couple of external walls back to back so a very tricky drilling task. This would appear to make the external grade cable a prudent alternative.

                #27054
                Dave RiceDave Rice
                Participant
                  @ricedg
                  Forumite Points: 7

                  Yep, there’s always a way even if it’s with an external WiFi Building to Building link!

                  #27055
                  RichardRichard
                  Participant
                    @sawboman
                    Forumite Points: 16

                    Agreed, some modern technology really does deliver a choice of answers to flatten every problem.

                    #27059
                    Wheels-Of-FireWheels-Of-Fire
                    Participant
                      @grahamdearsley
                      Forumite Points: 4

                      If there is any drilling through troublesome walls to be done then dont bother with a DIY hammer drill. Hire a Hilti rotary hammer drill and buy a suitable bit. I was amazed at how they can cut through rendering that just smashed the hardened tips off ordinary masonry bits.

                      #27060
                      DrezhaDrezha
                      Participant
                        @drezha
                        Forumite Points: 0

                        Not that anyone will really check until you come to sell the properties, but it might not be wise drilling through a fire wall between the houses…

                        "Everything looks interesting until you do it. Then you find it’s just another job" - Terry Pratchett

                        #27061
                        RichardRichard
                        Participant
                          @sawboman
                          Forumite Points: 16

                          Yes very true, fire stops and all the rest with pyro cable, oh the fun meetings I remember from a previous age. I recall one meeting with some pleasure as a discussion went on between two factions, both totally unaware that the non pyro not low smoke cable was used into a manhole outside the building and the activity for the meeting was on the floor above the ground floor. A little grenade I tossed in to break an emerging dead lock.

                          I have to say the German rules appeared to be remarkably free and easy at the time.

                          I am not sure about the rules here concerning external surface run , e.g. Ethernet cables, running between dwellings. Almost anything would certainly be easier than drilling 4 foot thick walls.

                          #27067
                          Dave RiceDave Rice
                          Participant
                            @ricedg
                            Forumite Points: 7

                            Welcome to the last week of my life. It’s the Navy job next week, in a building we’ve done before and know the major PM players, but we’ve been hit with new CPR Ethernet cable regulations and what the MoD have decided is the spec they want.

                            A new Euro wide specification came out last year, but that’s just to define what things like LSZH really mean, it’s up to each country to decide what spec will apply where. Westminster ducked the issue but the BSI have decided what a “standard” should be and the MoD have gone with that. They did go one level higher until they found that no-one was making fibre to that standard yet! We also have to use metal ties where cables aren’t in trays. Fair enough, I can see the sense, but don’t tell us with only days to go. Then there’s the haggling over who picks up the extra (not inconsiderable) cost.

                            I won’t go into the moving of the location of equipment due to another project’s impact that had just been noticed and the speccing, sourcing and more haggling over the cost and implications of the extra kit needed. Only to be told this morning just 2 hours before my drop dead time for getting that kit that we were back to Plan A. ?

                            I just remembered why we drink so heavily in the evenings when on M0D work ?

                            It’s not just the Govt, I was approached last week to see if I could do an urgent job at Wembley stadium today (and could I be available on Sunday if needed), putting in a wireless link to a trailer in one of the car parks. Drop dead date for that was Tuesday noon and the contractors I would have been working to had heard nothing from Wembley. On Friday it was all can you guarantee this and that, yes no problem, move work around to accommodate their dates, then nothing…

                            I also found out that the design I did for a large project had been given to another outfit to implement. Now I know how Wickes kitchen designers feel ?

                            #27133
                            TipponTippon
                            Participant
                              @tippon
                              Forumite Points: 0

                              I’d put an AP in each loft on the underside of the landing ceiling. If there is mains in the loft they could be powered from there and only 1 cable run down to the router. If no mains then they will all need to be cabled back. The power could come from an appropriate PoE switch or the included power injectors. The PoE switch is the most elegant solution. Shopping list: N – 3 x Ubiquiti UniFi UAP £60 / Ubiquiti TS-5-POE TOUGHSwitch 5-Port Gigabit PoE Switch (60W) £85 or NETGEAR GS305 5-Port Desktop Gigabit Switch £15 and the power injectors. AC – 3 x Ubiquiti UAP-AC-LITE GEN2 AC1200 £80 / Switch with PoE TP-LINK TL-SG1008P 8-Port (4x PoE Ports) Desktop Gigabit Switch (53W) £60 or NETGEAR GS305 5-Port Desktop Gigabit Switch £15 and the power injectors.

                              Thanks Dave 🙂

                              I was afraid you were going to say something like that. I don’t think he’s going to go for that sort of cost. As much as I like him, he’s your stereotypical older guy who doesn’t see the point of the internet apart from a bit of fun and some shopping. On top of that, I doubt that I’d be able to do it myself, so would have to get someone in to do it for him. I’ll give him the details and see what he says though.

                              It’s a bit gutting, because a few years ago I would have loved a challenge like this 🙁

                              #27138
                              Dave RiceDave Rice
                              Participant
                                @ricedg
                                Forumite Points: 7

                                Banging my own drum here, but you’re right, this is the job for a professional and needs a proper site survey. I’m sure the GDPR implications will be totally lost too. Probably a risk that could be taken, but for the modest extra cost must be worth getting yourself protected as modest doesn’t begin to describe the potential fines.

                                One thing I will tell you is that every similar one I’ve done so far costs less than 3 separate BB connections. You always need to look at costs of ownership vs upfront; there’s a reason why Wilkinson Sword does razors cheap and blades expensive ?

                                If he wants it done properly let me know.

                                #27169
                                JayCeeDeeJayCeeDee
                                Participant
                                  @jayceedee
                                  Forumite Points: 230

                                  One thing I will tell you is that every similar one I’ve done so far costs less than 3 separate BB connections. You always need to look at costs of ownership vs upfront; there’s a reason why Wilkinson Sword does razors cheap and blades expensive ? 

                                  Wearing my landlord’s hat, I can see why he may baulk at the cost of the installation. However, if they were mine, I’d look at the overall cost ( as Dave says ), but I would then think about the cost of a fast fibre connection – to serve between three households – wait for Dave’s bill to come in, look at that total cost and apportion it between the tenants, thereby supplying them with Broadband added to their monthly rent.

                                  For example :-

                                  Average BB Fast Fibre £40 per month   =   £500 per year or £1000 for 2 years.

                                  Installation costs                                         =   £1500 ( probably excessive, but just a random supposed figure )

                                  Total £2500.

                                  To recover costs over 2 years – £2500 ­divided by 72 ( rental months ) = £34.7. He could add £25 to their monthly rent and recoup costs in 100 rental months ( just under 3 years ), or add £20 and recoup in 125 rental months ( just 3 1/2  years). After that he’d only have the BB cost to cover and would be £500 divided by 36 rental months = £13.889 which is clear profit per tenant per month.

                                  He’d also get more interest when it comes to getting new tenants with that included in the rent.

                                   

                                  He could ( should ) play neutral and just cover the cost or he could look at a better service to all tenants along with the chance of a profit. Win/win.

                                  #27174
                                  Dave RiceDave Rice
                                  Participant
                                    @ricedg
                                    Forumite Points: 7

                                    Most landlords I know leave it to the tenants to get their own. Where I have done something similar is on shared sites, like the family farm in Cornwall, or where the buildings are all owned by the same business.

                                    On the farm my cousin rents out her barn conversion in the summer so there is a Guest network that is isolated, no need to worry about emmets printing. Another cousin runs a motor repair shop from another barn, so I’ve made sure his business PC is properly firewalled. I could have provided him with a Ubiquiti airCube ACB-ISP AP to create his own isolated network in his office as coverage wouldn’t be an issue.

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