Forumite Members › General Topics › Tech › Other Tech › AI – At long last the Government wakes up!
- This topic has 27 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 6 months ago by
Ed P.
-
AuthorPosts
-
August 20, 2018 at 10:42 am #24891
The Beeb reports that both the Government’s Advisory Council and the Bank of England have woken up to the threats and challenges posed by AI and technology in general. Better late than never I suppose, and probably five years too late as the writing was on the wall the first day that automated check-out came to shops. Maybe I’ll be able to stop my own voluntary boycott of these job killers in the near future but I fear they will continue to proliferate faster than our idiot politicians can think of ways of dealing with the threat.
I disagree with the report in one vital area, unskilled manual workers will not be most affected, as in the main this will require a marriage between AI and mechanical equipment, and the savings per person may make this hard to economically justify. In fact the savings are much larger and easier to implement for skilled areas. Take the recent publicity of the AI benefits in eye-disease diagnosis. The additional equipment is trivial, the savings come purely from cluster analysis and pattern recognition. The potential savings from just one eye-specialist probably justify the programming labour! Paralegals are already a threatened species,and it has been shown that AI makes better decisions than Judges. As other examples of skilled personnel at risk, the medical profession probably has a lot of low-hanging fruit. In fact once you think about it, bar the ‘creative’ areas most professions are threatened by AI.
I’m not a Canute wanting to stop this wave of change, but I do think it vital that Governments wake up and start thinking through the social, economic and educational impacts and requirements of such a change. Britain will lag in this whole area and become fodder for more developed countries such as China unless we start to take action soon.
August 20, 2018 at 11:46 am #24895It’s OK ed, don’t worry as after brexit our labour will be cheaper than idea. We will be all making clothing for the likes of primark. there will be loads of work, I’ve all ready started to teach my young ones to use a sewing machine, and how to stich on sequins . ?
August 20, 2018 at 2:18 pm #24899I read Mr Haldane’s comments along with his reference to those fields employing numbers rather than any other aspects when referring to the possible employment effects.
I would be very surprised if there are many eye specialists to be affected by any change. There is already a backlog of action at the moment due to the shortage and costs of skilled staff with the ability to deal with current issues. Unless you are prepared to pay you will often go close to blind with easily treated conditions before you get treatment. The eye specialist still monitored the work done on my eyes, though he was likely one of a smallish number of specialists – by small I doubt that there are more than a low thousands, hence the wait lists. Mine commented that the cycle time for new techniques and hardware was often as little as three months, though he avoided the more bleeding edge methods as he had seen them come and fail in the past.
In contrast Airfreight employs 137,800 people according to the best data I could find, many of them are in the ‘pile ’em high sell ’em cheap’ jobs Steve wrote about. Some jobs will touch other transport means so there will be inevitable double counting, but there must be at least the same again in other versions of the logistics industry, airfreight is small compared to shipping and road haulage. Just look at the road transport effort involved in flinging food about the country. A likely total would likely exceed 300,000 so even 10% of that would be a lot of impact. There must be richer pickings to be had anywhere that uses big numbers of bodies. Postal sorting was a manual activity, it really is no longer and neither is a lot of other logistics. Harvesting and gathering are crying out for some automation relief of their drudgery as fewer people want to freeze their vitals off in the cold wet and often dark fields of night-time work.
A heratic’s thought, who will build, service and repair these support worker robots? Other autonomous robots?
August 20, 2018 at 4:37 pm #24901I would be very surprised if there are many current eye specialists to be affected by any change.
Corrected!
Rather like Supermarkets introducing automated checkouts and saying that ‘no staff will be made redundant’ this welcome development removes future job opportunities. I would not argue that the numbers affected will be small, but apart from the medical testing overhead the development cost will be low.
My point is not that there will not be a larger number of blue/grey collar automation impacts, just that it would be foolish to assume that a similar percentage of white/educated collars will not be similarly affected. It isn’t just a question of willy-nilly ‘upskilling’ everyone, more a need to closely analyse what action will be most productive. Trite comments such as those made by the Bank’s economist are liable to be dangerous if accepted without question.
With respect to your rhetorical maintenance question, it does not require many bodies just to replace blown components, and I suspect that junking/recycling and printing new parts will replace many traditional technologist/mechanic jobs.
August 20, 2018 at 4:53 pm #24902It’s OK ed, don’t worry as after brexit our labour will be cheaper than idea. We will be all making clothing for the likes of primark. there will be loads of work, I’ve all ready started to teach my young ones to use a sewing machine, and how to stich on sequins . ?
WOW…. So you are upping sticks and leaving the UK after Brexit. Which part of India or Bangladesh are you moving to? That’s where all our clothing comes from.??? But look on the bright side. We will be able to do our own free trade deal with you without Brussels being involved.
_______________________________________________________________________________________
During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
August 20, 2018 at 4:54 pm #24903Tbh I think AI would potentially be a better eye tester than an eye specialist. At least in the diagnostic stages..
Optitions then could just employ a couple of low paid staff to say sit there and press start.
I can easily imagine a real high def/infrared /etc.. Camera would get a far better look than a man with a torch, and I’d trust AI to diagnose any in perfection better than a person. Eventually.
I can’t think of many things computers and robotics couldn’t do better than humans tbh. It’s just a matter of time.
August 20, 2018 at 5:32 pm #24908Electrician. Plumber. Carpenter/Joiner/Cabinet maker. High-end Watchmaker. Food preparation/Hospitality/catering.
Mechanic? How many of today’s “technicians”, armed with diagnostic laptops and electronic tools, have the knowledge and experience, to maintain a Classic Car? Check out the economic value of the Classic Car market: –
Specialise! There will always be a place for those who spot a gap and go for it, create and supply goods and services, and build a business which requires human labour of one sort or another. Probably not as much as previous decades and there will be many falling by the wayside, but it will happen. The world is about to get even more competitive and competition is what has always driven the human race.
I see a future whereby some sections of the population will become second or even third class citizens, being paid by the taxpayer to live. A significant proportion are already engaged in that process, I fear. The big problem is the number of people on the planet and the inability of perhaps >50% to feed their families.
When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.August 20, 2018 at 6:25 pm #24909No EdP I do not accept your always looking on the dark side of everything. I accept that farriers are now relatively rarely used and horse troughs likewise are more useful for feeding flowers than watering horses, in short change happens. I read several accounts of Mr Haldane’s comments and none aligned with your superficial dismissal of his comments. I read accounts of a speech that sounded a real and sensible warning that time is running out. Likewise you are too exercised by the tiny coterie of eye specialist surgeons. We are currently crap at diagnosing and, more to the point successfully treating many eye problems so there is huge scope for improvement in that area. Current eye treatment hardware is not given away with the cornflakes it is unlikely to ride a tide of new, ‘just for fun’ developments. I remember accounts of the child who had their cancer discovered by accident because a lay person simply noticed the asymmetry of the poor kids eyes in a photograph. They lived after an operation(s) but had it been a few weeks later they might have been suitable just for organ donation. For this reason even with new machinery I see a vanishingly small chance of eye specialist surgeons disappearing any time soon. Steve is very right in my opinion and sets out the same model for low level screening I advocate in the High Street ‘buy some specs people’, not to specialists set above and behind the front row shock troops. It was to the specialists such as surgeons I was referring when I spoke of small and subpar numbers (not quality), perhaps in the low thousands, maybe even less. Perhaps properly feed with screened patients both costs and effective results would improve. In a way professionals or even educated clerical types have less to worry about, I always found the ready to adapt and retrain.
I found I was unable to relate in any way to your casual assessment to the idea of the self discarding AI robot that could summon a replacement off the next cargo cult shipment. It will take people to test, order replacements including doing the (electronic) ‘paperwork’ via a new series of chains.
We killed the railways by clinging to passé steam, the ship building industry with yards that were too small and relied on rivets, to coal when its problems were already obvious. With attitudes like those seeping out from your hand I feel you wish to chase the wrong dragons.
Part for ‘force majeure’ neither my wife nor I have used a ‘traditional’ high street in years, to us they are as much the present day as the horses and carts, they are past it and suitable only for a museum, far away. We need to run with a new future seeking model not tied to the anchor chains of Luddite tendencies.
August 20, 2018 at 7:07 pm #24910Worryingly for me, accountants are also in the firing line from AI. On a positive note, despite HMRC doing their damned best to force it through, HMRC’s track record with IT leaves a lot to be desired. I’m probably safe until I retire.
Arch Linux, on a Ryzen 7 1800X, 32 GB, 5 (yes -5) HDs inc 5 SSDs, 4 RPi 3Bs + 1 RPi 4B - one as an NFS server with two more drives, PiHole (shut yours), Plex server, cloud server, and other random Pi stuff. Nice CoolerMaster case, 2 x NV GTX 1070 8GB, and a whopping 32" AOC 1440P monitor.
August 20, 2018 at 7:19 pm #24912Just to correct false impressions I was not being Luddite in my thinking, however anything that buys time to allow reality to sink into the moribund techno-phobic brains of our politicians would be a good thing.
“It will take people to test, order replacements including doing the (electronic) ‘paperwork’ via a new series of chains.”
Btw over 20 years ago the linking of the General Ledger to purchase order-entry to POS boxes, high-rise automated warehouses and ‘picking’ algorithms pretty much ripped the guts out of that particular business sector. Many companies now only have jobs for a few buyers, replacing the 40 or 50 people who previously staffed that particular job stream — been there and implemented such stuff (SAP ran a lot of it).
August 20, 2018 at 7:25 pm #24913After my pancreatic cancer op in April this year, and during the first stages of the ensuing chemotherapy, drugs, etc, I was informed that I would need to see an NHS Dietitian. I was told at Castle Hill Cancer ward that this was a must, because there are certain things I cannot eat or drink, certain periods between meals and sizes of meals that I must stick to. Here we are in August and I am no wiser: there are apparently so few NHS dietitians that none is available for me until November. Maybe…
I carried out my own research of course, which led to several conflicting sources of information. Therefore I decided to use my own commonsense. I drink alcohol very rarely, usually a white wine Spritzer. I eat in moderation and try to avoid processed foods, red meat and other foods that may be harmful. I drink no tap water here, ours is very hard water, so I drink several liters of “Highland spring” water a week. I eat chicken, fish and the (very) occasional Steak and kidney pie, with few potatoes and lots of veg, which I love. I take a little sugar on my cereal, nothing else.
By the time this dietitian has got around to telling me what I should or should not eat and drink, I will have fixed my own diet. If his/her instructions conflict with my own choices, I will probably say yes/no and go my own way. Not the Fault of the NHS, simply the fact that what was supposed to support my recovery, is one more Lost Factor.
When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.August 20, 2018 at 7:42 pm #24920If you are forced to use online medical sources a lot of the cruff can be avoided by including ‘research’, ‘scientific studies’ ‘clinical trials’, scholarly’. etc in your search terms. The https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov site often has bleeding edge dietary research data in it.
August 20, 2018 at 8:14 pm #24921That Bob is the real issue with the NHS not enough of the right skilled staff when you need them*. That is certainly interesting stuff about the NHS Dietitian, none has ever been offered to either of us for any reason, though about 20 years ago our eldest did see one, once.
Apart from grapefruit and its juice and broad beans for other medicines, that has been about all the controls for us. We both tend to skirt round the rather dodgy advice columns on dietary foibles. We have eaten wheat for well over half a century without issue, so gluten stays in our diet with only the volume bread being monitored.We knew one, now late friend, who was convinced she was a coeliac, except she has lethal stomach cancer. Tap water has been good enough for years, though we do filter it to a drinking water tap. Hard water might be related to some things, soft water to to others, I cannot remember the anecdotal accounts. Neither of us have had any alcohol since Mid may when I had my thing dug out of by nose and my wife started chemo, (only two more sessions before the operation). That is probably a good dietary step since we had started to find
glasses(oops be honest) the bottles a bit small. Different subject, the latest dietary discovery is that our boarding dogs think their meal is greatly improved by the addition of chopped broccoli and cauliflower. They leap up from sleeping and clear the veg perhaps leaving the odd trace of dog food. Meal sizes have varied for my wife with a general swing in favour of fruit and a reduction in vegetable with the meal. I think this is partially because the fruit is outside of the meal slot and can be grazed on demand. She can only allow a limited intake at many sittings. Unfortunately there has been some sort of reaction, cause unknown which cause discomfort and profuse sweating. That is currently under investigation, she is also reacting to every type of sticky thing used to anchor the PICC line.*I said before about the ‘skilled NHS worker’ who could only load one sample at a time into an automated culture incubator when the machine should do 40 sample batches, because ‘that was all she could manage’.
August 20, 2018 at 8:24 pm #24922EdP in one outfit the ledger was seriously not the issue. They simply were not allowed to order spares and certainly no growth ‘spares’ without a long convoluted process to gain authority. We used to buy stuff on what was either our slush fund or petty cash for them on loan to overcome their process delays. Mind you some boards were bit on the pricey side when they failed at tens of thousands of pounds each, but some of them were covered by a (human intervention) swap repair maintenance agreement. The major issues are not with the political class but with the two brain dead sides of industry who cannot see any point in preparing for change until after the factory gates close one last time.
August 20, 2018 at 8:33 pm #24923Just to correct false impressions I was not being Luddite in my thinking, however anything that buys time to allow reality to sink into the moribund techno-phobic brains of our politicians would be a good thing. “It will take people to test, order replacements including doing the (electronic) ‘paperwork’ via a new series of chains.” Btw over 20 years ago the linking of the General Ledger to purchase order-entry to POS boxes, high-rise automated warehouses and ‘picking’ algorithms pretty much ripped the guts out of that particular business sector. Many companies now only have jobs for a few buyers, replacing the 40 or 50 people who previously staffed that particular job stream — been there and implemented such stuff (SAP ran a lot of it).
The whole ‘Just in Time’ model with central warehouses wiped thousands and thousands of sales jobs off the job market. Until that occurred all the big FMCG companies had hundreds of reps on the road visiting each store, doing stock checks and taking orders that would be delivered direct to each store. I was in that game in my early twenties and visited most big chain outlets like Tesco’s outlets, Woolworths, etc., in NW London on a two weekly sales cycle. I would bump into dozens of other such reps from Mars, Unilever, Heinz, etc., etc., every day. Central purchasing and JIT wiped out thousands and thousands of sales jobs in a few short years.
What truly surprises me today is that the big discounters, Lidl and Aldi, do not link sales at checkout to ordering. Their Managers manually stock check on shelf daily with a handheld scanner and that generates the order. That makes no sense to me. Surely the figures could in effect be taken from checkout sales. I can only assume that because stuff gets thrown about in those stores they anticipate a very high and variable level of breakages and that can only feed into the system if the Managers assess usable remaining stock daily.
_______________________________________________________________________________________
During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
August 20, 2018 at 9:41 pm #24928Automation has been replacing many IT jobs for years. I could upgrade 25,000 Office installs in a managed way inside a week all by myself (same goes for MS updates etc.). It would usually take 2 of us to mop up the failures, in the case of spectacular problems – usually Adobe related – we’d have a task force of 6 – 10 but the need for any physical hands on a box was very rare. It took only 2 of us to manage the AV for the same number of seats and that was mainly because you’d need cover for absence.
When I first started it was all hands on. I remember spending all day in Truro installing W95 and Office on 2 PCs via a box of floppies. But then the number of PCs in the organisation was probably measured in (many) hundreds not tens of thousands. Especially when you had to write a fully costed business case to get one!
August 20, 2018 at 11:21 pm #24931After my pancreatic cancer op in April this year, and during the first stages of the ensuing chemotherapy, drugs, etc, I was informed that I would need to see an NHS Dietitian. I was told at Castle Hill Cancer ward that this was a must, because there are certain things I cannot eat or drink, certain periods between meals and sizes of meals that I must stick to. Here we are in August and I am no wiser: there are apparently so few NHS dietitians that none is available for me until November. Maybe… I carried out my own research of course, which led to several conflicting sources of information. Therefore I decided to use my own commonsense. I drink alcohol very rarely, usually a white wine Spritzer. I eat in moderation and try to avoid processed foods, red meat and other foods that may be harmful. I drink no tap water here, ours is very hard water, so I drink several liters of “Highland spring” water a week. I eat chicken, fish and the (very) occasional Steak and kidney pie, with few potatoes and lots of veg, which I love. I take a little sugar on my cereal, nothing else. By the time this dietitian has got around to telling me what I should or should not eat and drink, I will have fixed my own diet. If his/her instructions conflict with my own choices, I will probably say yes/no and go my own way. Not the Fault of the NHS, simply the fact that what was supposed to support my recovery, is one more Lost Factor.
The Marsden issued a booklet to me called “Eating well when you have cancer”. There’s a pdf on the Marsden website. LINK.
I found it areally useful reference. Plain advice, no preaching. Hope you find it useful.??
PS – as you’ll read in the book, you’re not drinking enough water. One consultant told me that more water will help dilute the toxins in the body – I asked him wouldn’t it dilute the treatment also – he didn’t have an answer for me!! However, I’ve been told on several occassions, by several health professionals, that I should drink more water – I still find it a struggle.
August 21, 2018 at 7:18 am #24945“They simply were not allowed to order spares and certainly no growth ‘spares’ without a long convoluted process to gain authority.”
I think you put the finger on one of the major problems that the Civil Service and many other Government organisations face. Throwing systems at a carp manual process is simply a waste of money and adding bureaucratic overhead and reporting rarely improves control . The now almost disused Organization & Methods procedures need to be dusted off and the whole manual process streamlined well before any code is written!
August 21, 2018 at 8:13 am #24946Different subject, the latest dietary discovery is that our boarding dogs think their meal is greatly improved by the addition of chopped broccoli and cauliflower. They leap up from sleeping and clear the veg perhaps leaving the odd trace of dog food.
Veg in all brands/varieties/mixtures of dog food is something that I’ve noticed in the last few years. It started off in the “healthy living” niche of the market but has spread to general usage.
Peas. peppers, carrots, rice ( less so potatoes ), make regular appearances in the food our boarders bring with them.
The most outrageous this far has been THIS. £2.50 a TIN!!! But then, the ingredients read like a human dish.
Chicken (60%); Potatoes (4%); Sugar Snap Peas (2%) Carrots, Spinach, Apples, Vitamins and Chelated Minerals, Herbs, Safflower Oil
August 21, 2018 at 8:37 am #24947@VFM — pilferage is one of the major problems that stuffs up a fully integrated sales/reordering system.
Although it is possible to think of ways of using technology such as RFID to monitoring stock being moved around it is probably more cost effective just to do inventory spot checks on the goods that are found to break or ‘walk’ the most, and link shortages with the reordering process. As Lidl only pay bare minimum wages using staff spare time is probably the cost effective route.
-
AuthorPosts
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
