A good thing with Windows 10

Forumite Members General Topics Tech Windows Talk A good thing with Windows 10

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  • #22253
    johnbarryjohnbarry
    Participant
      @johnbarry
      Forumite Points: 13

      A good thing with Windows 10

      No more scanning, I am talking about after an accidental power down.

      With Windows 10 it just starts up again.

      No more Scanning Drive C:

      I think it’s good.

      Cheers
      John

      #22265
      Wheels-Of-FireWheels-Of-Fire
      Participant
        @grahamdearsley
        Forumite Points: 4

        You can thank NTFS for that.

        NTFS is a journaling file system so it keeps a log of any proposed disk changes before it actually makes them. If an operation is successful it is marked as complete and gets removed from the log.

        Every time Windows starts it runs a mini version of CHKDSK but it only has to scan the log file for incomplete operations, not the entire disk.

        If an incomplete entry is found then NTFS rolls back the whole operation. This protects the disk structure but sadly not the data.

        #22266
        Wheels-Of-FireWheels-Of-Fire
        Participant
          @grahamdearsley
          Forumite Points: 4

          Infact it is slightly better than that because if NTFS has successfully logged an entire operation but it has not been marked as complete because of a system crash then NTFS may decide to redo the operation instead of rolling it back.

          #22270
          johnbarryjohnbarry
          Participant
            @johnbarry
            Forumite Points: 13

            Thanks Graham

            Windows 7 was NTFS I am sure it CHKDSK before it got to the desktop, after a switch off (not power down) ie I have 2 PCs both on a switchable 240v socket, it’s when I switch the wrong socket off by mistake.

            I will install 7 (NTFS) and see, maybe I am thinking (XP Fat32)

            Cheers
            John

            #22278
            Wheels-Of-FireWheels-Of-Fire
            Participant
              @grahamdearsley
              Forumite Points: 4

              Hi John

              I haven’t personally seen that scanning disk thing since Windows ME but I would be interested in the result of your test.

              #22279
              Wheels-Of-FireWheels-Of-Fire
              Participant
                @grahamdearsley
                Forumite Points: 4

                Im just going to describe one of NTFS’s self healing features here because I can’t help myself ?

                With the FAT system an entry in the file allocation table points to the first cluster of a file and then that cluster points to the next cluster in a linked chain. The last cluster in the chain is marked as end of file instead of pointing to another cluster.

                If a cluster goes bad then you will loose all of the file past the bad cluster at the very least because there is now no way to find the next cluster in the chain.

                NTFS stores file records in the Master File Table and it works in a different way. NTFS stores file data as contiguous RUNS of sectors and the file record contains the runs starting cluster and its length. If data is appended to a file then a new run is created and added to the file record.

                You can probably see how this prevents lost clusters and cross linked clusters but its better than that because of virtual cluster numbers (VCN). The file record actually stores a run’s starting cluster as a Logical Cluster Number (LCN), VCN pair. The LCN represent the physical clusters on the disk, starting at 0 and continuing to the end of the disk. The VCN represents a clusters position within a file, starting at 0 and continuing to the end of the file.

                If a cluster goes bad then NTFS can map in a new one and here’s how its done.

                Say a file has just one run with a starting VCN of 0, a LCN of 100 and a length of 10 clusters. If a cluster, lets say 105, goes bad then NTFS will amend the length of the original run to 5 and then create a new run with just one cluster in it, starting with VCN 6 and pointing to a new good cluster. NTFS will then create a third run starting with VCN 7 and a length of 4 containing the rest of the LCN’s.

                So you now have three run’s instead of one but the file is still valid with the VCN’s sill running from 0 to 9.

                If you happen to be running software raid then the Windows Volume manager will fill the new cluster with data from the copy but even if you are not then loosing just one cluster may not matter much in say a jpeg file.

                #22280
                Wheels-Of-FireWheels-Of-Fire
                Participant
                  @grahamdearsley
                  Forumite Points: 4

                  Oh and NTFS will also add the bad cluster to the bad clusters file so it never gets used again, unlike with FAT.

                  #22282
                  Ed PEd P
                  Participant
                    @edps
                    Forumite Points: 39

                    Im just going to describe one of NTFS’s self healing features here because I can’t help myself ?

                    That changed over the Win8/10 period and is the main reason that dual booting Win10 with earlier versions of Windows is fraught with issues if you have and use config (or similar) files in the earlier version. Windows seems to treat these like Win10 owned system files and keeps a hash or something of their contents. If the earlier version changes this config file, Windows 10 will ‘helpfully’ repair it as soon as it is booted. This causes issues and can even result in corrupted files in the earlier version.

                    Best not to use dual boot, and frankly with the speed of modern VMs there is no real excuse to do so.

                    #22283
                    Wheels-Of-FireWheels-Of-Fire
                    Participant
                      @grahamdearsley
                      Forumite Points: 4

                      I would love to know what is in the 100MB hidden “System” partition these days. Under Windows 7 you could assign it a drive letter and mount it from Disk management but under W10 I have been unable to do so. This partition contains Windows boot manager and the boot configuration data base (BCD) but there is other stuff in there too I would like a look at.

                      By the way the “System” partition is always formatted as FAT as it is a requirement of the UEFI standard and Microsoft does the same with BIOS systems too. If im not mistaken the “Windows” partition must be NTFS for NT based versions of windows because it is the only type they can boot from.

                      #22286
                      Wheels-Of-FireWheels-Of-Fire
                      Participant
                        @grahamdearsley
                        Forumite Points: 4

                        I will also mention that if you have a BIOS system you do not “Have” to have a System partition.  If you let Windows 10 setup partition your drive you will get one but if you have an existing version of XP installed you won’t. In this case the boot manager and config files are put in a Windows partition.

                        #22293
                        johnbarryjohnbarry
                        Participant
                          @johnbarry
                          Forumite Points: 13

                          Hi John I haven’t personally seen that scanning disk thing since Windows ME but I would be interested in the result of your test.

                          Results are in (maybe not CHKDSK) it happens

                          Windows 7 – NTFS-  acciddently power off / startup results below

                          First picture is the wrong one I started in safe mode, not normal.

                          This I have never seen in Windows 10, that’s what I meant.

                           

                          Cheers
                          John

                          #22300
                          Wheels-Of-FireWheels-Of-Fire
                          Participant
                            @grahamdearsley
                            Forumite Points: 4

                            I must admit I have not seen the Windows did not shut down properly screen in a while but I don’t know what’s changed exactly. I do know if you shut down Windows 10 improperly 3 times in a row it presents you with recovery options so maybe they just added a counter ?

                            If you start any version of Windows in safe mode it will list the drivers it is loading as in your screen shot.

                            #22307
                            johnbarryjohnbarry
                            Participant
                              @johnbarry
                              Forumite Points: 13

                              Maybe as you say after 3 power downs you could be met with recovery, I won’t try that one.

                              That was my point, I was met with the options (safe moode) after a power down (allbeit the first) I don’t see that after a power down in Windows 10 it just boots into desktop as per.

                              Cheers
                              John

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