How to test a relay?

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  • #19336
    tadkatadka
    Participant
      @tadka
      Forumite Points: 0

      Any of you chaps know how this relay can be tested? It’s not an ordinary relay that the YouTube videos show how to test. After a bit of thinking I did the following:

      I connected my car battery to the terminals 30 and 85. Then I set my multimeter to 20 volts and did tests between the terminal 30 and each of the 87 terminals. Then between the 85 and each of the 87. The 85 and 87 connections read as about 12v and the 30 and 87 connections didn’t read. It’s seems to me that the relay is ok but I’m no electrician. Quite the opposite. What do you guys think?

       

      #19344
      JayCeeDeeJayCeeDee
      Participant
        @jayceedee
        Forumite Points: 230

        If this were a horn relay in a car, the idea is a high current wire is connected to 30, when the horn button inside the car is pushed it connects an earth to 85 which completes the ( low current ) circuit that powers the relay. The relay operates and extends the high power to 87, which sounds the horns.

        The reason relays were introduced was to stop arcing on the horn button, a light duty switch, and let the high speed relay contacts do the high current switching. They’re also used for dipped and main beam flashing etc.

        What does this come from, the terminal numbers are off a little from the norm?

        #19355
        tadkatadka
        Participant
          @tadka
          Forumite Points: 0

          If my image search is correct it’s called a DME Relay.

          My car won’t start and on forums people say that replacing this blue relay might fix the problem. I was doing other tests (battery and fuse box areas) and forgot to order one.

          So I did this test but I have no idea if that’s a valid test. Me no speak electricity. On BMW forums someone is telling me this test is not good and tells me what to do but as far as I can tell what he is telling me is exactly the same as what I did….

          #19357
          tadkatadka
          Participant
            @tadka
            Forumite Points: 0

            I think I’ve figured it out. I connected 30 to “+” on the battery and 85 to “-” which makes the circuit connect. It also makes both 87s directly connected to “+” on the battery? I then tested each 87 against “-” on the battery (multimeter set to 20v and the black probe on the battery “-” and the red probe on the 87). Both 87s read about 12v. It looks to me like this test should be good or am I wrong?

            #19359
            RichardRichard
            Participant
              @sawboman
              Forumite Points: 16

              Pull and guess as a way to find electrical problems is a mug’s game. A Google search suggests that the DME relay originated as a Porsche term, it may or may not be correct in this case and if it is faulty it would seriously affect a car’s ability to start. In the Porsche context it appears it starts both the engine management system and the car’s fuel pump(s), it is a safety part that cuts fuel pressure in the event of a shunt to avoid fire risks. I fear that you might need a little more in the way of electrical checking to confirm where the get up and go has got up and gone. Electrical systems on more modern cars are fearsome, unless you have both good tools and the skills to read a car’s fault you may fail. I have had garages fail to find electrical problems – the symptoms pointed at this device or that device according to the computer codes, both were replaced and the problem in the wiring remained. A single dodgy break in a wire was the cause of the (expensive) trouble. A clued up auto electrician found, and fixed the issue, (others had failed) it only needed wire and cable terminations, plus the time to trace and fix the issue. You have not defined the symptoms as you know them, in this case is there fuel pressure, where is power reaching or not reaching, is the fuel injection system working, etc. Note, I am no auto electrician, but it does sound as though you do need a leg up in that league to point you in the right direction.

              #19360
              The DukeThe Duke
              Participant
                @sgb101
                Forumite Points: 5

                How much is a replacement? Could you not go to your local breakers, and ask buy one. But ask if it doesn’t fix your car that you can return it. I know my breaker would agree to that.

                Failing that I know my local CES would take a return. Not sure how much a new would be

                Both far quicker than messing about testing it. Also if its broke you’ll need a new one anyhow.

                #19361
                tadkatadka
                Participant
                  @tadka
                  Forumite Points: 0

                  @Richard, a few days ago my BMW refused to start and threw up loads of codes. RAC couldn’t figure out what’s wrong and towed me home. I googled the error codes on my dash and there were a lot of stories where dealers replaced ££££ worth of stuff (ECUs, fuel pumps, hydraulic pumps, various sensors, etc.) and in many cases it turned out to be that blue relay that costs like £20 or so. But sometimes there were other issues – bad battery, rusty cables in battery compartment due to water, bad B+ cable connection to the fuse box, crankshaft sensor, camshaft sensor and so on. I’m not very knowledgeable in cars but I should be able to check those things one by one. Had the battery out and checked all cables. No problems with the cables but the battery test with my new fancy battery charger said my battery is only 60% so I bought a new one. Had the fuse box out to check the B+ connection but no problems there either as my car has the older (better) connection. Also checked all relays and fuses. All good. This blue relay resides next to the ECU and is my final check before I try to start the car again with the new battery. Also will have to check the ground connection for the ECU but that should be easy. Unfortunately it’s raining so I don’t want to open the ECU box to put that relay back in.

                  And I do have a laptop which can read error codes through the OBD port but that connection stopped working too. Even the RAC couldn’t get connected.

                  And if after these check it still is not starting I’ll have to start looking into various sensors that could be the culprit.

                  #19364
                  Ed PEd P
                  Participant
                    @edps
                    Forumite Points: 39

                    Good luck – in my experience a lot of garages are completely lost when the ECU goes tits-up. If a replacement part does not work, I just hope that your local garage still has an old phart who remembers how to check through the circuits or knows how to bypass the start-up system to get the ECU off the ground. Dumbing-down systems has its flaws!

                    As Richard says modern car electrics are horrendously complex and inter-connected, I gave up on even attempting to look when someone pointed out that even the entertainment system can be involved!

                    #19368
                    JayCeeDeeJayCeeDee
                    Participant
                      @jayceedee
                      Forumite Points: 230

                      One thing you could try is the substitution test. Check in your manual, and on the car, and look for another relay on the car – horn, wipers, heated rear window, main beam, – for one with exactly the same terminals and pin layout.

                      The theory is you don’t need any of the above to start a car – only when it’s on the road. You can do it one of two ways, put the proven working relay  in the DME slot and give it a try, or the old DME relay in the other accessory slot and see if that works.

                       

                      Please bear in mind I’m not an auto electrician, I just messed around with them in my youth, which was a long while back now!!! I did work for BT, pre-electronic exchanges, on equipment that was nothing but relays – hence the substitution protocol !!

                      I feel your pain looking for a cheap ( realistically priced ) way round – mine’s a Merc!!

                      Don’t bother with breakers – try EuroCarParts, search for DME Relay, put your reg no in and see what price new ones are – I checked for mine and the dearest was £25. If it doesn’t work, you might get your money back or at the very least, a credit note!!

                      #19369
                      tadkatadka
                      Participant
                        @tadka
                        Forumite Points: 0

                        I don’t think there is another relay like that in my car, I test every one I could find and they all were your usual basic relays. I should have ordered one days ago. Some £20 in this scenario is small change, and it’s good to have a spare one as they are a known failure risk. But with the other stuff going on and work I just didn’t think of it…

                        #19380
                        RichardRichard
                        Participant
                          @sawboman
                          Forumite Points: 16

                          The fact that the OBD port has stopped working is real issue in my book. Since it appeared to work when the problems started, but stopped as the problems built up suggests the me a major issue with power circulation. ECUs can and do fail, I would check to see if there is someone in your area who could check it over for you if all else fails. While I used the term ‘major issue‘, because the effect is deadly, it could be as simple as an earth, a bad connection or a damaged wire, all of which will cause major grief until they are found. As you have done things, could it be that for example something needs to be reset?

                          Frankly, we are all guessing wildly and I strongly feel the this one for a good auto-sparks, who knows the ways of the model

                          #19381
                          tadkatadka
                          Participant
                            @tadka
                            Forumite Points: 0

                            The fact that the OBD port has stopped working is real issue in my book. Since it appeared to work when the problems started, but stopped as the problems built up suggests the me a major issue with power circulation. ECUs can and do fail, I would check to see if there is someone in your area who could check it over for you if all else fails. While I used the term ‘major issue‘, because the effect is deadly, it could be as simple as an earth, a bad connection or a damaged wire, all of which will cause major grief until they are found. As you have done things, could it be that for example something needs to be reset? Frankly, we are all guessing wildly and I strongly feel the this one for a good auto-sparks, who knows the ways of the model

                             

                            The OBD port wasn’t working from the start when the RAC arrived. But it is now. Sort of. I’ve just put everything back together and the car is cranking but won’t start. I get 13 error codes. But of course it will most likely have one source. No way so many things went wrong while parked at work. I’ll try troubleshooting the crankshaft sensor as it often comes up in forums with non starting and fault lights on dash like what I have. If that fails a good auto sparky will be required as the rest is just way too complicated for me.

                            #19384
                            RichardRichard
                            Participant
                              @sawboman
                              Forumite Points: 16

                              I am sorry, I misunderstood the postings trail, if the OBD is now back on line you have sorted something out. As there are so many reports is there any commonality to them that point to a specific area? For example, fuel pressure, no fuel flow, fuel injection systems alarms could all come from e.g. a pump not getting fuel or no fuel, or even no power. A dumb example I know, but it does serve to point to a possible logical way through what otherwise feels like a maze.

                              #19386
                              tadkatadka
                              Participant
                                @tadka
                                Forumite Points: 0

                                That was my thoughts, find a common denominator. But to be honest I have no idea what it could be. Those are the faults I’m reading from my dash: DBC Dynamic Brake Control Brake Assist Failed, Runflat Indicator Failed, Reset Clock,
                                Brake and Stability Systems Failure, Fuel Pump Malfunction. I’m just googling for post that had the same errors all at once and looking at their solutions.

                                #19398
                                RichardRichard
                                Participant
                                  @sawboman
                                  Forumite Points: 16

                                  The clock fail is no doubt due to the loss of battery at some point and easy to overcome.

                                  On some cars the loss of battery power can upset the anti theft devices and some form of rest can be needed.

                                  Now you have OBD working have you done a rest of the system to clear the alarms, which may have come from a series of failures prior and during the current situation?

                                  #19399
                                  Ed PEd P
                                  Participant
                                    @edps
                                    Forumite Points: 39

                                    One common point of failure for all these sensors and starter is the car’s grounding system, e.g. corroded ground wires to the battery or frame.

                                    #19402
                                    JayCeeDeeJayCeeDee
                                    Participant
                                      @jayceedee
                                      Forumite Points: 230

                                      Checking the web for similar faults on merc’s, highlights one of the ABS wheel sensors failing or, believe it or not, the brake light switch. It seems the brake light switch has more than one set of contacts and if one set fails ( even though the brake lights still work! ) can bring about similar fault codes.

                                      These failures can put the ECU into “limp” mode – but that is at least supposed to get you home, albeit slowly!!

                                      #19404
                                      RichardRichard
                                      Participant
                                        @sawboman
                                        Forumite Points: 16

                                        Some, maybe all Mercs also have a switch in the centre console connected to the control systems though that normally ‘only’  brings up an alarm. Sorry in my earlier message the word ‘rest’ should have read reset, some of the error messages could predate the clearance of the OBD issue that prevented its use. As Ed said wiring problems can cause a whole host of errors and bad, high resistance or flaky connections are the very worst, remember, what you can see might only be part of the issue, corrosion can affect connections within any sheathing.

                                        #19406
                                        JukeboxJukebox
                                        Participant
                                          @jukebox
                                          Forumite Points: 4

                                          This is probably not relevant but maybe worth a mention. A couple of years ago my VW suddenly decided not to start and the AA bloke (who had fortunately previously worked for VW) fiddled around for a couple of minutes and then asked if I had a spare key. Spare key worked fine! Apparently there is a transponder (whatever that is) built into the key which had failed. Worth a try if your car uses a key rather than the later extremely insecure systems which seem to be prevalent now.

                                          #19427
                                          Mark TurnerMark Turner
                                          Participant
                                            @turner74
                                            Forumite Points: 12

                                            Hi Tadka

                                            I work at a Porsche breakers and can safely say we have sold loads of dme relays over the years. A company we recommend is Quarry motors in Sheffield they specialize in BMW and may be be able to point you in the right direction.

                                            Mark

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