5~30% CPU speed reduction to your Intel CPU forecast

Forumite Members General Topics Tech PC Talk 5~30% CPU speed reduction to your Intel CPU forecast

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  • #15179
    Ed PEd P
    Participant
      @edps
      Forumite Points: 39

      Intel have screwed up their CPU microcode big time, and introduced a very significant security bug in addition to their management spyware. As a result Linux and Microsoft have had to scramble for a quick fix – unfortunately the necessary patches are likely to cause a VERY significant slow-down to your PC. The use of the phrase ‘fundamental flaw’ suggests that Intel will not be able to patch CPUs to fix this – US lawyers must be dusting off their class actions as I write!

      The ElReg report is unclear whether this will also hit AMD Ryzen as collateral damage. ElReg link

      #15180
      DrezhaDrezha
      Participant
        @drezha
        Forumite Points: 0

        I’d be interested to see how this effects our modelling machines, however, for stability reasons, we don’t connect these to the network in any way, so I don’t think we’ll be updating anytime soon.

        "Everything looks interesting until you do it. Then you find it’s just another job" - Terry Pratchett

        #15181
        The DukeThe Duke
        Participant
          @sgb101
          Forumite Points: 5

          Could end up being a nice bump for AMD.

          #15182
          Ed PEd P
          Participant
            @edps
            Forumite Points: 39

            Gizmodo fleshes it out a bit – this looks to be a really nasty issue for many.

            Anyone know if AMD have fixed the Ryzen virtualisation pink screen  nasty?

            #15183
            PlaneManPlaneMan
            Participant
              @planeman
              Forumite Points: 196

              I wonder if it’ll have the same kind of impact on a Intel Chromebook? Chrome Os is after all a Linux distro essentially.

               

              #15184
              Dave RiceDave Rice
              Participant
                @ricedg
                Forumite Points: 7

                It’s going to affect all o/ses AFAIK.

                #15185
                Ed PEd P
                Participant
                  @edps
                  Forumite Points: 39

                  It’s going to affect all o/ses AFAIK.

                  +1, but although the impact on Windows is known from the Win 10 be5ta testers (see Gizmodo article), Linux is apparently yet to release their fixes outside a very closed group so we don’t know if the effects will be greater or less.

                  #15187
                  Wheels-Of-FireWheels-Of-Fire
                  Participant
                    @grahamdearsley
                    Forumite Points: 4

                    Hmm. Not much info out there yet about the exact nature of the hardware bug but the software fix looks nasty.

                    I was going to write a short pice about virtual address management on x86 CPUs but as this has come up here is a bit about it now.

                    Once an x86 CPU switches into 32/64 bit protected mode early in the boot process it is using virtual addressing and it maps these addesses into physical memory using page tables set up by the OS.

                    The CPU provides four levels of hardware memory and execution protection but Windows only uses 0 and 3 which it calls kernel and user modes.

                    On a 32 bit CPU there is 4GB of virtual address space and Windows normally reserves the top 2GB for its own kernel mode code.

                    When you launch a user mode program Windows creates a process for its thread/s to run in.

                    A process is like a container and it holds together all the info Windows needs to run a program. This is called the context.

                    Part of the context describes the virtual address range the process has been allocated.

                    A process will usuall be given the bottom 2GB of virtual addresses to use for its own private user mode threads. These virtual addresses are mapped into physical memory using page tables stored in the context of the process.

                    Every process also gets the 2GB of common kernel mode virtual addresses mapped into its range but this range is mapped into physical memory using the kernal mode page tables common to the whole system.

                    User mode threads cannot access kernel mode addresses directly but they do need to call OS services so the CPU provides a special service call instruction that puts the CPU into  kernel mode and executes a predefined service dispatch routine.

                    The kerel mode address range has to be included in every process address range or Windows would generate an access violation fault every time a system call was made.

                    Hardware CPU mode protection is the only thing stopping user code from accessing kernel memory so if a bug has compromised this then its a really big deal !

                    Hope thats clearer than mud ?

                    #15189
                    Bob WilliamsBob Williams
                    Participant
                      @bullstuff2
                      Forumite Points: 0

                      Thanks for that Wheels, I had to read it twice over but I understand it and the threat it represents. There will be people crowing about this, but there may be some heavy damage for Intel ahead. That is not good for anyone in the industry, not good for users of course.

                      My PC uses an AMD CPU, an FX-6300. Because at the time I built this desktop, it was what I could afford and it suited my modest requirements. It has served me well, but I would not dream of crowing about the troubles Intel are going to have. Users, and the industry, need at least two competing manufacturers, although Intel have been topdog for a long time now.

                      When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
                      I'm out.

                      #15192
                      Dave RiceDave Rice
                      Participant
                        @ricedg
                        Forumite Points: 7

                        Problem is Bob, even with the performance hit the Intel’s will still walk all over the FX-6300 in the benchmarks.

                        This is what makes me think that the average user won’t notice a thing. I switch between the FX-6300 and i3-6300 desktops and an i5-6200U laptop. The one thing they all have in common is an SSD. The i3 boots quicker but it’s only a second or two, in use I cannot tell the difference. Users of the low cost low power SOC laptops are more likely to be those that get the noticeable hit.

                        Of course none of this applies to boxes where the CPU is deliberately hammered, like rendering or virtual machine hosts. None of that applies to me any more. My AWS EC2 t2.micro server CPU rarely hits 2% looking after 11 APs on 8 sites.

                        #15199
                        Ed PEd P
                        Participant
                          @edps
                          Forumite Points: 39

                          Afraid I disagree Dave, I believe that users (especially gamers) WILL notice.

                          A car analogy is appropriate – if you are used to your car accelerating at a specific rate on a motorway slip road, and next day it cannot perform then you WILL notice! Whether you need that acceleration is moot but not relevant.

                          #15206
                          Dave RiceDave Rice
                          Participant
                            @ricedg
                            Forumite Points: 7

                            I did say average user, gamers are not average users.

                            But having practical every day experience of switching between machines that can have a single threaded speed difference of more than 30% link I cannot tell the difference in use. I know the i3 boots quicker but it’s only a second or two and you’d only notice if they were side by side. Put me on a machine with an FX-6300 with an SSD and an i7 with a spinner and I would notice the difference and it wouldn’t be the CPU.

                            I’m sure the geek and data centre worlds will (rightly) be awash with tales of woe, but Joe Public and home / SMB general purpose servers? We will see but I doubt it will be significant.

                            #15216
                            Ed PEd P
                            Participant
                              @edps
                              Forumite Points: 39

                              ‘Average User’ — well that starts a very different debate. If you mean someone who just uses a word processor, simple spreadsheet and trivial Internet browsing then of course I agree. Once you go beyond that (ex gamers) there are a number of common uses that are quite cpu intensive, and I’m not so sure that a (say) 30% CPU slowdown would not be noticeable to server operations. However as you say we will have to wait and see and mutter at Intel – who could well be heading for another FP div by zero disaster when replacement CPUs had to be offered.

                              #15220
                              Ed PEd P
                              Participant
                                @edps
                                Forumite Points: 39

                                According to Ars We will be offered an opt-out on the patches.

                                “In the immediate term, it looks like most systems will shortly have patches for Meltdown. At least for Linux and Windows, these patches allow end-users to opt out if they would prefer. – Ars Technica

                                #15232
                                Wheels-Of-FireWheels-Of-Fire
                                Participant
                                  @grahamdearsley
                                  Forumite Points: 4

                                  I just noticed I didn’t describe what a software patch would involve so here goes.

                                  Each process keeps two stacks of memory with one for user mode code and one for kernel code. These stacks contain, among other things, the contents of CPU registers when the CPU switches between user mode and kernel mode.

                                  When a user mode thread calls an OS service and switches to kernel mode the only thing that really changes is the stack that is used. The OS code is said to run in the context of the process that called it.

                                  This is how it works now but the patch would seriously change things. A patched OS would remove kernel address space from the context of all user mode processes so the kernel code in a service call would have to run in its own precess. This would involve a full context switch every time a user thread called an OS service.

                                  A multitasking OS performs a context switch every time it switches tasks but this is not trivial and you would not wan’t to do it every time a thread requested disc I/O for example.

                                  Unfortunatly this is what a patched OS will have to do.

                                  #15249
                                  Ed PEd P
                                  Participant
                                    @edps
                                    Forumite Points: 39

                                    The slowdown patches start being rolled-out today.

                                    #15256
                                    Ed PEd P
                                    Participant
                                      @edps
                                      Forumite Points: 39

                                      REAUTERS state that all major chips are affected by a second flaw (Spectre) for which no fix is apparently available at the present time. link

                                      #15266
                                      Ed PEd P
                                      Participant
                                        @edps
                                        Forumite Points: 39

                                        You MAY want to hold your horses in applying the Windows Slowdown Patch as Intel have announced chip level patches are being rolled out!

                                        Intel

                                        #15273
                                        RichardRichard
                                        Participant
                                          @sawboman
                                          Forumite Points: 16

                                          Interesting, my pc installed the patch last night and completed things over night. My wife’s largely identical machine says nothing is available this morning. I will have to check out the registry entries.

                                          So far my machine feels little different as Dave suspected would be the case. If anything it might even be a little crisper, though this could be due to the effects of a reboot that was perhaps overdue.

                                          #15276
                                          Ed PEd P
                                          Participant
                                            @edps
                                            Forumite Points: 39

                                            Richard was the update KB4056892,? If not then it is not surprising that you have seen no slowdown. If the earlier statement of this being an ‘opt-out’ option is correct then this should only appear in recommended updates, and not be foisted on everyone willy-nilly.

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